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Anonymous

libertarians and warfare
    #3325132 - 11/05/04 05:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

anyone with some familiarity with libertarian theory knows that the core theme of libertarian thought is the non-initiation of force principle. you may do as you wish, as long as you do not initiate force.

so, some will challenge, what of warfare? aren't innocent civilians killed, or if not killed, unjustly endangered, and if not even that, unjustly threatened, by any side in any war?

are libertarians opposed to any and all forms of warfare?

the answer is no. we need to consider who actually does the initiation of the violence in question.

if someone takes a human sheild, they do not become invincible to those exercising ethical discression in the use of force. they have initiated force, and placed their hostage in harms way.

if the government of nation A attacks nation B, it is perfectly legitimate for the people of nation B to defend themselves, even though it may mean the death of innocent civilians of nation A. force has been initiated by the government of nation A.

there is an old, probably archived thread that goes into this in more detail, but fresh discussion would be nice i think.


Edited by Anonymous (11/06/04 12:08 PM)


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: ]
    #3325134 - 11/05/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What's the Libertarian stance on Muslims?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3325147 - 11/05/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Handy snacks


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3325198 - 11/05/04 06:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

?

Care to elaborate on your joke.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3325215 - 11/05/04 06:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Basicly useless and of no redeeming social value. The inherent fascism of islam is anathema to Libertarians.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,727
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3325348 - 11/05/04 06:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Handy snacks


:rotfl:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: ]
    #3325435 - 11/05/04 07:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Foreign policy, specifically warfare, is one of the few issues where I agree 100% with the libertarian platform (actually, after a moment's reflection, that's not true, because I do, to some degree, support our role in the UN).

When it comes to war,the initation-of-force principal is not only morally enlightened but also extremely practical in terms of foreign relations and the economy.

Also, I'm personally very opposed to preemptive military action. Since the 50s, it's been one of the worst policies of this country. And, as I see it, has almost always gotten us into more trouble than it's been worth. I understand there's some sort of rift within the libertarian party on this? I don't see how that can be... but I don't know everything.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Edited by Gijith (11/05/04 08:40 PM)


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OfflineTao
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: Gijith]
    #3325516 - 11/05/04 07:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

edit: directed to mushmaster

Advice: stop clinging to the inherently flawed 'intiation of force' mantra. it will be infringed by the establishment of any government, by the establishment of copywright law, establishing interest rates to avoid inflation, any form of infrastructure, and by numerous other problems of defining what is "the initiation of force" (drunk driving, stockpiling weapons, etc.). sorry to burst the bubble, but it is NOT a perfect solution or else far more academics would adhere to it.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3325705 - 11/05/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Basicly useless and of no redeeming social value. The inherent fascism of islam is anathema to Libertarians.




What about Sufis? Or Moderate Muslims? Peaceful Muslims make up a majority. If Islam was a fascist religion, there would be millions of insurgents in Iraq, not 20,000. Get the picture?

Scapegoating an entire religion simply shows how fucking lazy you are. You like Bush, right? You do know that Bush has had only nice things to say about Muslims... you can find most of his quotes at www.muslimsforbush.com

Quit being so lazy, zappa.


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Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
 User Gallery

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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3326264 - 11/06/04 12:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

haha well put. im lazy, fuck christians.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3326520 - 11/06/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
What's the Libertarian stance on Muslims?



If they don't harm anyone else Libertarians don't give a damn what they do.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: libertarians and warfare [Re: ]
    #3326780 - 11/06/04 05:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the answer is no. we need to consider who actually does the initiation of the violence in question.

Who decides who is doing the "initiation of violence"? tho? Adolf Hitler always insisted that his invasions were done in "self-defence".

Didn't you agree with the invasion of Iraq? So I presume you go along with the neocon "pre-emptive defence" theory where if you even suspect someone might be THINKING of attacking you some years in the future then you have the right to kill them? How does that square with the "initiation of violence"?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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