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Offlineekomstop
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Kerry Won - Here are the Facts.
    #3323736 - 11/05/04 09:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

Kerry Won.
Here are the Facts.
excerpted from TomPaine.com
Thursday, November 4, 2004
E-Mail Article
Printer Friendly Version

by Greg Palast

Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of votes cast are voided?known as ?spoilage? in election jargon?because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Drawing on what happened in Florida and studies of elections past, Palast argues that if Ohio?s discarded ballots were counted, Kerry would have won the state. Today, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000 provisional ballots. So far there's no indication that Palast's hypothesis will be tested because only the provisional ballots are being counted.


Kerry won. Here's the facts.

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]

Once again, at the heart of the Ohio uncounted vote game are, I'm sorry to report, hanging chads and pregnant chads, plus some other ballot tricks old and new.

The election in Ohio was not decided by the voters but by something called "spoilage." Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of the vote is voided, just thrown away, not recorded. When the bobble-head boobs on the tube tell you Ohio or any state was won by 51 percent to 49 percent, don't you believe it ... it has never happened in the United States, because the total never reaches a neat 100 percent. The television totals simply subtract out the spoiled vote.


Whose Votes Are Discarded?

And not all votes spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every official report, come from African-American and minority precincts. (To learn more, click here.)

We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count. That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, excluded 179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched through completely?leaving a 'hanging chad,'?or was punched extra times. Whose cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating spoilage for the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, click here.)

And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other minority citizens.

So here we go again. Or, here we don't go again. Because unlike last time, Democrats aren't even asking Ohio to count these cards with the not-quite-punched holes (called "undervotes" in the voting biz). Nor are they demanding we look at the "overvotes" where voter intent may be discerned.

Ohio is one of the last states in America to still use the vote-spoiling punch-card machines. And the Secretary of State of Ohio, J. Kenneth Blackwell, wrote before the election, ?the possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state?s primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity.?

But this week, Blackwell, a rabidly partisan Republican, has warmed up to the result of sticking with machines that have a habit of eating Democratic votes. When asked if he feared being this year's Katherine Harris, Blackwell noted that Ms. Fix-it's efforts landed her a seat in Congress.

Exactly how many votes were lost to spoilage this time? Blackwell's office, notably, won't say, though the law requires it be reported. Hmm. But we know that last time, the total of Ohio votes discarded reached a democracy-damaging 1.96 percent. The machines produced their typical loss?that's 110,000 votes?overwhelmingly Democratic.


The Impact Of Challenges

First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat wasn't punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the 'challenges.' That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's use of an old Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands of voters of color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the GOP laid plans for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane laws?almost never used?allowing party-designated poll watchers to finger individual voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio courts were horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters where race is a factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was prepared to let Republicans stand in the voting booth door.

In the end, the challenges were not overwhelming, but they were there. Many apparently resulted in voters getting these funky "provisional" ballots?a kind of voting placebo?which may or may not be counted. Blackwell estimates there were 175,000; Democrats say 250,000. Pick your number. But as challenges were aimed at minorities, no one doubts these are, again, overwhelmingly Democratic. Count them up, add in the spoiled punch cards (easy to tally with the human eye in a recount), and the totals begin to match the exit polls; and, golly, you've got yourself a new president. Remember, Bush won by 136,483 votes in Ohio.


Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote

Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality?if all votes are counted?is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com, I wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico, though not one ballot has yet been counted."

How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the provisional ballots.

CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes. Again, the network total added up to that miraculous, and non-existent, '100 percent' of ballots cast.

New Mexico reported in the last race a spoilage rate of 2.68 percent, votes lost almost entirely in Hispanic, Native American and poor precincts?Democratic turf. From Tuesday's vote, assuming the same ballot-loss rate, we can expect to see 18,000 ballots in the spoilage bin.

Spoilage has a very Democratic look in New Mexico. Hispanic voters in the Enchanted State, who voted more than two to one for Kerry, are five times as likely to have their vote spoil as a white voter. Counting these uncounted votes would easily overtake the Bush 'plurality.'

Already, the election-bending effects of spoilage are popping up in the election stats, exactly where we'd expect them: in heavily Hispanic areas controlled by Republican elections officials. Chaves County, in the "Little Texas" area of New Mexico, has a 44 percent Hispanic population, plus African Americans and Native Americans, yet George Bush "won" there 68 percent to 31 percent.

I spoke with Chaves' Republican county clerk before the election, and he told me that this huge spoilage rate among Hispanics simply indicated that such people simply can't make up their minds on the choice of candidate for president. Oddly, these brown people drive across the desert to register their indecision in a voting booth.

Now, let's add in the effect on the New Mexico tally of provisional ballots.

"They were handing them out like candy," Albuquerque journalist Renee Blake reported of provisional ballots. About 20,000 were given out. Who got them?

Santiago Juarez who ran the "Faithful Citizenship" program for the Catholic Archdiocese in New Mexico, told me that "his" voters, poor Hispanics, whom he identified as solid Kerry supporters, were handed the iffy provisional ballots. Hispanics were given provisional ballots, rather than the countable kind "almost religiously," he said, at polling stations when there was the least question about a voter's identification. Some voters, Santiago said, were simply turned away.


Your Kerry Victory Party

So we can call Ohio and New Mexico for John Kerry?if we count all the votes.

But that won't happen. Despite the Democratic Party's pledge, the leadership this time gave in to racial disenfranchisement once again. Why? No doubt, the Democrats know darn well that counting all the spoiled and provisional ballots will require the cooperation of Ohio's Secretary of State, Blackwell. He will ultimately decide which spoiled and provisional ballots get tallied. Blackwell, hankering to step into Kate Harris' political pumps, is unlikely to permit anything close to a full count. Also, Democratic leadership knows darn well the media would punish the party for demanding a full count.

What now? Kerry won, so hold your victory party. But make sure the shades are down: it may be become illegal to demand a full vote count under PATRIOT Act III.

I used to write a column for the Guardian papers in London. Several friends have asked me if I will again leave the country. In light of the failure?a second time?to count all the votes, that won't be necessary. My country has left me.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ekomstop]
    #3323748 - 11/05/04 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh lord, let the clowns banter.

Kerry lost, fair and square.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3323968 - 11/05/04 11:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

care to actually address palast's argument?


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3323985 - 11/05/04 11:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
oh lord, let the clowns banter.

Kerry lost, fair and square.





Well, I for one am convinced.

:flipthebird: :rolleyes: :flipthebird:


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3323997 - 11/05/04 11:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
care to actually address palast's argument?




No, he'd rather just say he's wrong and walk away..... much easier.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Anonymous

Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ekomstop]
    #3324111 - 11/05/04 11:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i think we all knew that there were going to be plenty of "kerry won" claims coming out of this election no matter what. we can of course count on greg palast to bring us some of them.

i'd take what he has to say much more seriously if he provided some sources for the many claims he makes in this article. he makes a lot of claims in this article without any proof or even evidence to back them up. then, he speculates, based on his unsupported claims, that kerry actually won.

if there is evidence to support greg's claims, he sure doesn't provide any.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324122 - 11/05/04 11:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
care to actually address palast's argument?



Same as in Florida in 2000, Democratic voters are too dim to properly punch a ballot. But those 'dumb hicks' by contrast seem to be able to muster the intellect and hand-eye coordination to properly cast their ballots for Republicans. Go figure...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ]
    #3324127 - 11/05/04 11:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

evidence comes from investigation. investigation takes time. the election as 3 days ago. evidence will be uncovered.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Evolving]
    #3324135 - 11/05/04 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

who said anything about voter error?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ]
    #3324136 - 11/05/04 12:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, predictable to say the least.

Remember, Kennedy pribably stole his election.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Rose]
    #3324140 - 11/05/04 12:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Considering the evidence, I think Nixon won.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324148 - 11/05/04 12:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Me too...

My point is the average shroomerite is a conspiracy buff by nature.

EVERYTHING that happens CAN'T be a conspiracy.

Sometimes, the nation just picks the other guy... and sometimes YOUR guy's the cheater.

Is that scary?

Well, it is true.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324155 - 11/05/04 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Spoiled ballots... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to properly punch a ballot, mmmkay.

Here's your official Democratic party seal...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ]
    #3324178 - 11/05/04 12:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if there is evidence to support greg's claims, he sure doesn't provide any.




Especially annoying when the title is 'Here are the Facts'

The whole electronic voting thing bothers me. But as far as this election goes, I'm not buying theories put forth... yet.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ekomstop]
    #3324210 - 11/05/04 12:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324223 - 11/05/04 12:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

care to actually address palast's argument?




What point would that be?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3324240 - 11/05/04 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No, he'd rather just say he's wrong and walk away..... much easier




need a tissue? I knew this would happen. Libbies tend to find excuses why they lost instead of looking at themselves. Liberals: There is no way Bush could of beat Kerry because we're right and everyone hates Bush......the lottery was fixed, that's it. Oh, and I was disenfranchised...yadda yadda yadda"...sad

It's hard to argue with BS so there's no need to so I'll just continue yelling shenanigans every time a new libbie throws out more "evidence" as to why Kerry lost. Kerry lost because he was disliked by the majority of the voters, it's quite simple.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Evolving]
    #3324242 - 11/05/04 12:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

did I say otherwise?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ]
    #3324250 - 11/05/04 12:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

if there is evidence to support greg's claims, he sure doesn't provide any. 




Evidence? EVIDENCE?  We they don't need no stinkin' evidence!! :mad:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3324257 - 11/05/04 12:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well, when the Democrats begin fixing elections again, I'll listen and consider the evidence with you. I wouldnt call you a crybaby or a sore loser, I'd want to get to the truth.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324269 - 11/05/04 12:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

well, when the Democrats begin fixing elections again, I'll listen and consider the evidence with you.




rest assured that I wouldn't be making those accusations unless I had proof. And I wouldn't whine like many in this thread. There's no point.

Quote:

I wouldnt call you a crybaby or a sore loser, I'd want to get to the truth.




You're not me and I just call em like I see em. I know people don't like to face the facts but the fact is your guy lost, so did mine. I was preparing for Kerry to win this election because of the Exit polls which happened to be so wrong it was pityful. I wouldn't of liked it but I would start crying wolf just because I don't like the guy.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3324311 - 11/05/04 12:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Like I have said before, we are still in the investigation stage - the election was only 3 days ago. Evidence of error will be uncovered here and there like it has today

Something tells me you wouldnt cut it as a journalist or a private investigator or a police detective :tongue:

Whining? I just want to enage in a discussion, that's why I am participating in a discussion forum. I want to put forth these pieces of evidence and weigh it out and see if fraud occurred or not. If you have a problem with such discussion threads, then dont read and respond to them.

Quote:

I know people don't like to face the facts but the fact is your guy lost, so did mine.




Right, like the "fact" that Kennedy actually won 1960.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Evolving]
    #3324335 - 11/05/04 01:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you want a crybaby? Try Alan Keyes


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3324398 - 11/05/04 01:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I was preparing for Kerry to win this election because of the Exit polls which happened to be so wrong it was pityful. I wouldn't of liked it but I would start crying wolf just because I don't like the guy.




No, the exit polls were RIGHT, but like the article said, they ask "Who did you vote for?" not "Who did you vote for & did it count?" I guess you didn't read the article. But that's OK, I wouldn't really expect you to.

What's funny is that you called me a crybaby when all I did was point out how you disregarded the article and the poster's opinion without backing it up. You just called him out and walked away.

Weak.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3324425 - 11/05/04 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

PS, I remember something about a NO FLAMING rule in this forum.







Crybaby.  :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3324429 - 11/05/04 01:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ricelicker writes:

No, the exit polls were RIGHT....

On what evidence do you base this assertion?


pinky


--------------------


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Offlinericelicker
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Phred]
    #3324477 - 11/05/04 01:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.alternet.org/election04/20416/
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...6&ncid=2043
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

But if you don't bother to read the articles I can't help you.

I guess you could argue this is not evidence and only opinion, but I'm sure we can agree that the question the polls ask is "Who did you vote for, not who and did your vote count?"

Is it really that hard to understand? The exit polls showed Kerry winning. More people voted for Kerry. The exit polls were right, but the spoilage votes tipped it in the other direction.

Like the beginning of the originally referenced article says:

"I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad."

I know you can't handle it, but you'll be OK.


--------------------
"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324485 - 11/05/04 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Something tells me you wouldnt cut it as a journalist or a private investigator or a police detective




nor would you make a good prosecuter.

Quote:

Whining? I just want to enage in a discussion, that's why I am participating in a discussion forum.




I wasn't naming names. I love to participate in factual discussion but I have a hard time disciussing rationally on unrational topics and "facts"

How many here would believe me if I started a thread that said that bush paid off Kerry to lose the election? I bet I would be able to start some discussion and possibly have someone believe it.

Quote:

If you have a problem with such discussion threads, then dont read and respond to them.




I have no problem with it at all and if you have a problem with my replies, please do the same.

Quote:

Right, like the "fact" that Kennedy actually won 1960.




Blame it on Nixon, I wasn't around then


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3324765 - 11/05/04 02:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I love to participate in factual discussion but I have a hard time disciussing rationally on unrational topics and "facts"





Funny, you have yet to actually address ballot irregularities or demonstate why these noted irregularities should be dismissed. Help me out - I want to know the truth.

well, here's some reading material for you:

Broward machines count backward
Computer Loses More Than 4,000 Early Votes
In one precinct, Bush?s tally was supersized by a computer glitch
Surprising Pattern of Florida's Election Results
Optical Scan Questions in Florida
Ohio: Bush Gained In e-voting Counties
Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes

Quote:

How many here would believe me if I started a thread that said that bush paid off Kerry to lose the election? I bet I would be able to start some discussion and possibly have someone believe it.




So? Is there any reason to believe such a thing? In this thread, I have provided information that many ballots were not counted and there were many errors with the official count. Could you do the same? No - so why the analogy? What are you talking about?

Quote:

Blame it on Nixon, I wasn't around then




Did I ask you if you were? I simply pointed out that elections can and will be tampered with if there is a means and motive and that "fact" isnt always fact - this was the case of the 1960 election that Nixon should have won if not for Democrat voter fraud and corruption.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Vvellum]
    #3324989 - 11/05/04 03:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Funny, you have yet to actually address ballot irregularities or demonstate why these noted irregularities should be dismissed. Help me out




I'm on your side now 100%...seriously..............................................................


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3324993 - 11/05/04 03:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't exit polled, were you?

Exit polls have a margin of error... this exlecton fit within the MOE of the exit polls.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Rose]
    #3325081 - 11/05/04 04:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nobodies hit the truth yet.....WE LOST and it does not matter anymore if it is Kerry Or Bush in the White House since they both are cut of the same cloth.
WR:wexican:


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Rose]
    #3325090 - 11/05/04 04:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
I wasn't exit polled, were you?




Nope, I found that quite odd. If people want a system whereby EVERYONE has their say tallied and counted, maybe we should... oh wait, we do that already. Since not everyone that voted was exit-polled, and everyone that was exit-polled voted, you can see how the logic runs here.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: whiterasta]
    #3325110 - 11/05/04 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
Nobodies hit the truth yet.....WE LOST and it does not matter anymore if it is Kerry Or Bush in the White House since they both are cut of the same cloth.
WR:wexican:




Yes, but wouldn't you rather the non-religious fanatic win?





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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Learyfan]
    #3325123 - 11/05/04 04:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No kidding... people seem to forget that Kerry is the lesser evil since he doesn't drag his religious beliefs into policy. Bush does and then some. This is why conservatives are wrong...their compass for policy is Jesus, where liberals use reason and rational.


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3325172 - 11/05/04 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

All these fucking labels being thrown around for your ideas and stances. Are they really your stances or have you been brainwashed by the media? Where do those labels even come from?

I think you're all fucked in the head arguing over one rich corporate greaser over another. Liberal this republican that democrat this.. that doesn't mean shit the whole system is fucked and was played like a game all over your TV's. The rigging of the election was done in your minds when they convinced you it all meant something.

Can't you see the fucking idea was to split the nation in half and cause chaos?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3325204 - 11/05/04 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Bush's religion's a RUSE.

It will taper off, now he's won re-election. They just needed to convince the Moral Right to vote.

Mission Accomplished.

If only more Shroomerites could lose gracefully, like Kerry.


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OfflineSpongerock
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ekomstop]
    #3325235 - 11/05/04 05:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sweet, this means we just made you our bitch AGAIN.

Respect your overlords!


Edited by Spongerock (11/05/04 05:15 PM)


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Offlinefrogger25
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Spongerock]
    #3325586 - 11/05/04 06:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: faslimy]
    #3325696 - 11/05/04 07:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When have you ever heard of a "Religious Left"? Of the Leftists that are Christians, they are tolerant and don't give a flying fuck about two men who want to merry or a dish of cells. They actually observe the teachings of Jesus to "turn the other cheek.".


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: ricelicker]
    #3326893 - 11/06/04 07:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ohmigod! Greg Palast and alternet claim there were shenanigans! Stop the presses! Of course they are going to claim that, duh.

What you are ignoring is the fact that the pre-election polls taken after the debates showed a Bush victory by almost exactly the same margin as the actual vote results. Go to any non-partisan website which lists the results of all those polls (realclearpolitics is a good one, but certainly not the only one) and spend some time reviewing the numbers. Then get back to us.

The fact of the matter is that it is the exit polls which show the fishy numbers. They were wildly different than all the pre-election polls, none of which had predicted a Kerry win. Hell, one of the exit polls showed Kerry with eight times the number of votes he actually won in that particular precinct. An objective person would conclude there were shenanigans with the folks running the exit polls, not with the half dozen or so firms who had been running polls for more than a year.

But if it makes you feel better to believe Bush stole this election, go for it. I'm all for people feeling good.

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Phred]
    #3327170 - 11/06/04 10:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What you are ignoring is the fact that the pre-election polls taken after the debates showed a Bush victory by almost exactly the same margin as the actual vote results.




incorrect...these are the final gallup polls before the election from FL and OH ..

florida...
ohio...

the national gallup poll had them tied at 49% each..which is within the margin-of-error from the actual vote...but it was OH that mattered..and one "malfunctioning" diebold machine there is known to have given bush 3893 free votes...40 such machines in OH hands bush the election...

you might also want to look more closely at the results from florida..too...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3327230 - 11/06/04 11:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

How unlike you to ignore other polls and to ignore the website suggestion pinky provided.

:rotfl:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (11/06/04 11:03 AM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3327291 - 11/06/04 11:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you mean the same site that said bush was going to win WI?? :laugh:...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Kerry Won - Here are the Facts. [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3327322 - 11/06/04 11:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

annapurna1, the website luvdemshrooms has just linked to is a compilation of dozens of different polls done by different organizations, many of which showed bush to be in the lead going into the election.

i don't know what this WI bit is about. the site is a compilation of many polls, and besides, kerry won WI by .4% of the vote there.


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