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Offlinelargosnook
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Registered: 11/03/04
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potency lost through generations?
    #3321444 - 11/04/04 09:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am also curious about my boys potency per flush regarding making new prints. should I make a few prints from my first flushing or is this not needed?


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"I Love my Honey-Bunny!"


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Offline4hodmt
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Registered: 04/06/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: largosnook]
    #3321462 - 11/04/04 09:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

make KARO. never deal with sproes again.


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OfflineEuphoricDisaster
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: 4hodmt]
    #3321474 - 11/04/04 09:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Karo? What is that? Where can i get info?


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Invisiblederx
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: EuphoricDisaster]
    #3321494 - 11/04/04 09:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

go to search, type in karo, change the time to 1 year, and read


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Offline4hodmt
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: derx]
    #3321524 - 11/04/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

KARO is honey water.

take a jar.
add a teeny amount of honey.
add water.
mix well.
boil for an hour.
add spores.
incubate for a few days.
bingo, infinite liquid mycellinium culture.


--------------------
all posts made by 4hodmt are entirely ficticious. the user 4hodmt has noa ffiliation with any company, or organization; any endorsements made by 4hodmt are to be considered a joke. any similarity between a person (or story) 4hodmt is talking about is entirely happenstance. 4hodmt is not to be taken seriously under any circumstance. furthermore, he does not know what he is talking about. Please ignore anything 4hodmt has to say.


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Offlinelargosnook
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: 4hodmt]
    #3321560 - 11/04/04 09:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Do I put 100ml of water in a jar like im using for the cakes then add the karo?? Iwas just confused on where to put it


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Offline4hodmt
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: largosnook]
    #3321600 - 11/04/04 09:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

what are u confused abou?

its honey water.

sterilized.

karo is a name of abrand of honey i believe.

if u add too much, all that happens is su m of the honey caramalizes and climps at the bottom.

PM me if u hav any quesigtons.


--------------------
all posts made by 4hodmt are entirely ficticious. the user 4hodmt has noa ffiliation with any company, or organization; any endorsements made by 4hodmt are to be considered a joke. any similarity between a person (or story) 4hodmt is talking about is entirely happenstance. 4hodmt is not to be taken seriously under any circumstance. furthermore, he does not know what he is talking about. Please ignore anything 4hodmt has to say.


_______

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Actually I'm not from the future, but I did lived there for a while."

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Offlinediscman1
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Registered: 08/24/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: 4hodmt]
    #3322316 - 11/05/04 12:38 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Umm...NO.

The karo tek uses karo brand light corn syrup. It is NOT a honey tek. Please don't spread misinformation. Educate yourself before you post.


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Registered: 01/07/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
    #3322452 - 11/05/04 01:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

honey apparently contains wax and protein which can gunk things up, and obviously the color won't make it as easy to distinguish things growing in there.


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Offlineatomic1
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: largosnook]
    #3322618 - 11/05/04 02:05 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah the karo is light corn syrup and honey is honey. I believe the teks are the same though.

1tsp karo/100mL distilled water
pc @15psi for 15-20 min's, no more
let cool completely
inoculate & incubate
2 weeks you should have a nice supply of liquid culture :thumbup:


Edited by atomic1 (11/05/04 02:06 AM)


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OfflineAmygdala
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Registered: 06/30/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: atomic1]
    #3322734 - 11/05/04 02:33 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Also of note, the Karo tek will not completely eliminate the need for spores. If you were to continually use karo to inoculate more karo you would be causing strain degeneration, which is a bad thing. It is generally a good idea to "start over" with fresh spores (or a tissue sample) every 3 generations.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein


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Offlinediscman1
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Registered: 08/24/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Amygdala]
    #3322757 - 11/05/04 02:37 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I still don't understand the whole strain degredation thing.

A clone is a clone, there should be no genetic degredation.

I know someone who has been cultivating cannabis for the last 10 years, clone of a clone of a clone of a... hundreds and hundreds of times. It's still the same plant he started out with.

I realize that mycelium and plants aren't exactly apples to apples, but... what would cause degredation?


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OfflineAmygdala
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
    #3322779 - 11/05/04 02:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

A clone is a clone



Exactly. But a clone of a clone of a clone is not likely to be as healthy as the original source, the scientific explanation is somewhat complicated, and honestly I wouldn't be the best one to explain it sufficiently. But i can tell you that what strain degeneration causes is a much higher probability of contamination (this i know), and possibly a weaker fruit (this part im unsure of).


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: discman1]
    #3322784 - 11/05/04 02:47 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

There is no strain degredation except transfering mycelium over and over again. Its the same mycelium basically that grows out through all the jars. It slows down and contaminates much easier. Produces mutants too. After 3 transfers it just seems to tire out. Spores or clones are different though.

"Also of note, the Karo tek will not completely eliminate the need for spores. If you were to continually use karo to inoculate more karo you would be causing strain degeneration, which is a bad thing. It is generally a good idea to "start over" with fresh spores (or a tissue sample) every 3 generations."

You said it yourself..or a tissue sample. That means you NEVER need to deal with spores again if you so chose. 1cc to begin with..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3322823 - 11/05/04 02:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, so are you saying that its just that physical mycellium thats transfered which tires out, or all that grows from it? if the second, why is a tissue sample different? what about the example of mexicana, which is difficult to fruit. Would innoculating agar or karo with sclerotia fall in line with fruit or mycellium effect?


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OfflineAmygdala
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #3322849 - 11/05/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In regards to mexicana i cant really comment as im not well educated on sclerotia & such, but it is the mycelium which is weakening over the generations, so in turn, anything that grows from it would also be weakened. The reason I was pointing out the problems with successive karo transfers is because it would be the same as a G2G (in a sense) but its just with liquid instead, repetitive transfers would be causing degeneration. With a tissue sample your not propagating the mycelium but you ARE cloning the mushroom. So the corner I've just backed myself into is this: "Does repetitivly using tissue samples from the same orignal source cause degeneration?" I do not know, for that reason I stick to multispore every 3 generations. I really hope someone more knowledgable can come across this and clear up the issue with tissue samples, because you are in fact cloning the mushroom, which i hadn't considered previously.

Ok, im done rambling :stoned:

Edit: For clarity, what im asking about tissue samples is this:
    When taking the tissue sample and cloning it, is this considered G2, would cloning that be G3 and the end, resulting in the need for spores? Sorry, I've just never been one for tissue culture.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein


Edited by Amygdala (11/05/04 03:14 AM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: Amygdala]
    #3322883 - 11/05/04 03:25 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Taking a tissue culture is taking a clone of the mushroom and wont cause degredation. I am unsure of taking actually stones...I would feel this would be fruit and not mycelium but only if you take an inside peice and make sure you didnt get the mycelium.

The whole point is if you do it to begin with, you get a 10cc spore syringe. Even just 1cc per jar per culture you got enough to make 10 jars of liquid culture which is enough to do 10,000 jars. If you took each jar and went through 2 transfers ( I don't like going past that), thats a good 20,000 jars. Thats only using the original spore syringe. That would last you a few years and by the end of that you could grab a tissue sample of mushrooms and further it even more if you still hadnt gotten around to making another spore syringe. You could keep taking mushroom clones in that way though.

I'd probably make one jar with 1 cc then after a few months take a clone of a mushroom and again after a few months. That 1 cc would last you 6 months like that then you can always just start another with 1 cc of spores. One syringe can keep you going for many years without taking a spore print if you do it right.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleSubGen1us
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3322888 - 11/05/04 03:33 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

From what ive read about degeneration is it causes sterile mushrooms.
No spores in other words.
im not completely sure though.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #3322905 - 11/05/04 03:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It could but not nessesarily. I have a substrain of Z's made from a culture after 5 grain to grain transfers. The mycelium is slow and fluffy now. The casings take a little while to pin and the mushrooms are minitures of what the 1st generation was. There are also alot of mushrooms growing within the substrate and alot of mushroom masses that are similar and remind me of stones..but not quite. They are odd but quite cool looking. Over all the substrain puts off less then the original Z though. Potency is similar and though I don't deal with spore prints they definatly dropped spores all over themselves..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinediscman1
journeyman
Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 962
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: potency lost through generations? [Re: SubGen1us]
    #3322909 - 11/05/04 03:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, so wait.. what is the difference between a piece of mycelium and a piece of fruit tissue?

Does anyone know exactly why mycelium degenerates?

So does that mean it isn't like a plant which can be cloned infinately? Maybe that's not true for all plants?

What actually causes the genetic degredation? It seems to me that if you put the (cells) into the proper environment, they will ... divide and conquer.

So wait.. If you had a perpetual karo jar, where you injected new karo water every time you took a mycelial syringe.. would that be considered multiple generations? Would it ever degrade? Isn't that kinda like the mother idea in horticulture? You grow one "main" plant and continually harvest cuttings?

What if you took and injected the syringe into a 2nd jar of karo water.. would that be considered the 2nd generation? If so.. why? What is the difference?

:confused:


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