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Anonymous
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 enough already. 
#3321075 - 11/04/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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so much whining in here. you know.... we had two very shitty choices. kerry was horrendous. he lost. instead of dreaming up theories of stolen elections and threatening to leave the country, why don't we figure out why the democratic party is out of touch, and what they can do to appeal to the american voter. you know... i'd like to see someone who can stand up to the christian right as much as anyone here, but you gotta come up with something better than someone like john kerry. your boy lost. the reason is because he sucked. even more than bush. that says something. are you listening, or are you too busy bitching?
Edited by mushmaster (11/05/04 10:10 AM)
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 deafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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 Re: enough already. [Re: ]
#3321120 - 11/04/04 06:05 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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To be honest, I wouldn't give a shit whether Bush or Kerry was in office if it wasn't for Bush's stance on the environment (it doesn't exist).
And maybe Iraq.
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phi1618
old hand
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: enough already. [Re: ]
#3321154 - 11/04/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Bush won because, while he got votes from the traditional Republicans (small gov't, low taxes, big business) and Kerry got votes from traditional Democrats (minorities, unions, lawyers), Bush mobilized the right-wing fundies in a major way.
Now, alot of traditional Republicans don't care too much about this fundamentallist minority.
In order for Democrats to make a comeback, they should start looking at parts of the Republican party that might not be too pleased with the ascendancy of the Christian Right.
So, move more towards free trade (risk alienating the Unions), reduce emphasis on social spending (a la Clinton), keep a multilateral (vs. ascendant-US) foreign policy, and stick w/ the notion that the federal gov't should but out of people's private lives (to contrast w/ religious wackos and appeal to the libertarian-leaning wing of the Republican party).
Edit: of course, this all presupposes that the Christian wackos remain a motivated minority, and don't make too many converts.
Edited by phi1618 (11/04/04 06:16 PM)
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 Fucknuckle
Dog Lover
Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
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Re: enough already. [Re: ]
#3321366 - 11/04/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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You know, when we get a new President every 4 or so years. It can become kinda hard to pin all the blam on one guy. Wars are started yes but, the reasons can be decades old.
So the complete rupture of this place is kind dumb. I agree
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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
 
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God 
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: enough already. [Re: Fucknuckle]
#3321377 - 11/04/04 07:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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There have been three American wars in my lifetime. All have been during a Bush Presidency.
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Fiddlesticks.
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: enough already. [Re: phi1618]
#3321412 - 11/04/04 07:07 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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This election was basically a non-violent coup by Evangelicals. There was a huge turn out - democrats thought it was all younger people who would vote for Kerry when in reality it was an uprising of the Christian Right.
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ricyjo
Registered: 07/22/02
Posts: 1,516
Loc: -53.121600, 73.763943
Last seen: 25 days, 7 hours
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Democrats need to move to the swing states...
Illinois, Colorado, New Mexico, Ohio, Florida.. etc.
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"Re-examine all that you have been told...
dismiss that which insults your soul." -Walt Whitman
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Great_Satan
prophet of God
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
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Re: enough already. [Re: ricyjo]
#3321536 - 11/04/04 07:26 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I voted for Bush as revenge against all the people who hate him. I was overjoyed when I discovered he won the election.
Edited by Great_Satan (11/04/04 07:26 PM)
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: enough already. [Re: ricyjo]
#3321614 - 11/04/04 07:40 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ricyjo said:
Democrats need to move to the swing states...
Illinois, Colorado, New Mexico, Ohio, Florida.. etc.
lol, im from illinois and our state will never go consevative. You hear all about the east and west coast but illinois is one of the most liberal states in the US..lots of yuppies here
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JesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: Catalysis]
#3321934 - 11/04/04 08:53 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Those crazy right wing religious whackos! Those religious zealots have too much political influence!
Lets think about this. Throughout history, where have many of the revolutionary movements come from? Abolitionists and the Abolitionist movement started in the churches and was deeply rooted in religious beliefs. Reverend Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement started in the pulpits. The Catholics were champions of FDR?s New Deal and Lydon Johnson?s Great Society. Catholics had socialist publications. They embraced FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, Civil Rights and Welfare economics. Unions and the union movement had a deep base in the churches of this country. The Church was the first union for the workers, insisting that God wants everyone in the Kingdom to have at least one day off a week. And it wasn?t a bad idea. Everything about the Democratic base of days gone by was tied to the faithful.
They weren?t castigated fanatics and zealots then. The New York Times is writing editorials today about the separation of church and state and how the state of the Union is at risk because religious Americans are voting Republican. They certainly didn?t do that for the decades where religious folk in middle America backed every Democrat on the ticket.
Democrats are out of touch with their historical base. Black people are the only ones that continue to blindly follow the Democrats commands lock step, and even that still comes out of the black pulpits. Kerry was visiting more than a few black churches and playing up how blacks were disenfranchised in the 2000 elections, which is a pure lie.
Religious people have (mostly) always worked for social change and the common good. This election was the first time that Catholics voted Republican in a majority. Had they continued to vote overwhelmingly Democrat, your liberal would be in power and none of them would be complaining. Instead of blaming God-fearing folk, you should make a better case of convincing them to come back to the herd.
I believe in God. I think morality and spirituality are integral parts of my life. Should I check my moral beliefs at the pew or the church door? Should anyone? How hypocritical is it to worship God for one hour of one day of the week and then live the rest of my life devoid of values. Of course these things influence elections and society in general. They should. They always have. They always will. The Democrats need to get back in touch with their historical roots. If they don?t they will continue to marginalize themselves into further insignificance.
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Tastes just like chicken
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phi1618
old hand
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: JesusChrist]
#3321948 - 11/04/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I believe in God.
You are obviously insane. I suggest you get to a psychiatrist at your earliest possible convenience.
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: JesusChrist]
#3321975 - 11/04/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
JesusChrist said:
Those crazy right wing religious whackos! Those religious zealots have too much political influence!
Lets think about this. Throughout history, where have many of the revolutionary movements come from? Abolitionists and the Abolitionist movement started in the churches and was deeply rooted in religious beliefs. Reverend Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement started in the pulpits. The Catholics were champions of FDR?s New Deal and Lydon Johnson?s Great Society. Catholics had socialist publications. They embraced FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, Civil Rights and Welfare economics. Unions and the union movement had a deep base in the churches of this country. The Church was the first union for the workers, insisting that God wants everyone in the Kingdom to have at least one day off a week. And it wasn?t a bad idea. Everything about the Democratic base of days gone by was tied to the faithful.
They weren?t castigated fanatics and zealots then. The New York Times is writing editorials today about the separation of church and state and how the state of the Union is at risk because religious Americans are voting Republican. They certainly didn?t do that for the decades where religious folk in middle America backed every Democrat on the ticket.
Democrats are out of touch with their historical base. Black people are the only ones that continue to blindly follow the Democrats commands lock step, and even that still comes out of the black pulpits. Kerry was visiting more than a few black churches and playing up how blacks were disenfranchised in the 2000 elections, which is a pure lie.
Religious people have (mostly) always worked for social change and the common good. This election was the first time that Catholics voted Republican in a majority. Had they continued to vote overwhelmingly Democrat, your liberal would be in power and none of them would be complaining. Instead of blaming God-fearing folk, you should make a better case of convincing them to come back to the herd.
I believe in God. I think morality and spirituality are integral parts of my life. Should I check my moral beliefs at the pew or the church door? Should anyone? How hypocritical is it to worship God for one hour of one day of the week and then live the rest of my life devoid of values. Of course these things influence elections and society in general. They should. They always have. They always will. The Democrats need to get back in touch with their historical roots. If they don?t they will continue to marginalize themselves into further insignificance.
Take some acid. God isn't your personal savior (to quote M.M., your own personal Jesus), He is your transpersonal savior. It's not about taking God into your hards. It's about putting yourself into God's hands.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: zahudulallah]
#3321992 - 11/04/04 09:08 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zahudulallah said:
(to quote M.M., your own personal Jesus)
Who is M.M.? Depeche Mode did that song.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: z@z.com]
#3322015 - 11/04/04 09:14 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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You think this is bad?
A group of kids burned an american flag at my university yesterday.
Thats a gem!
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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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phi1618
old hand
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: JesusChrist]
#3322032 - 11/04/04 09:18 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Seriously...
I don't have a problem with moral or religious people.
However, many of the people who elected Bush, and many of those who made a critical difference in the race, oppose civil unions for homosexuals, believe that children should pray in school and the ten commandments should be on the walls of courthouses, want to ban abortion, and even want evolution out of the schools, or at least equal time for creation.
The people who support these positions are basically inflexible on them, just as I am.
These positions are anathema to many voters, including (I suspect) some republicans.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: looner2]
#3322035 - 11/04/04 09:20 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
You think this is bad?
A group of kids burned an american flag at my university yesterday.
Thats a gem!
While I was eating lunch today a guy wearing a white t-shirt with "Bush rocks my cock" written on it in permanent marker decided it was his duty to get up on a table and start ranting about all his conspiracy theories. It was funny as hell especially when the police led him out of there in handcuffs.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Talk about out of touch with the base! [Re: JesusChrist]
#3322426 - 11/04/04 11:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
JesusChrist said:
I believe in God. I think morality and spirituality are integral parts of my life. Should I check my moral beliefs at the pew or the church door? Should anyone?
No.
Quote:
How hypocritical is it to worship God for one hour of one day of the week and then live the rest of my life devoid of values.
Very. That is why I don't understand so called 'Christians' supporting collateral damage (meaning the killing of the innocent) in a foreign country while being against abortion in this country... Oh well.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: enough already. [Re: ]
#3322636 - 11/05/04 12:09 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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your boy lost. the reason is because he sucked. even more than bush. that says something. are you listening, or are you too busy bitching?
Doesn't always follow that the guy who wins the election sucks less. Remember, Hitler won an election.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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DirtMcgirt
in a pinch
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
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Re: enough already. [Re: Xlea321]
#3323212 - 11/05/04 03:36 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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The fact that Kerry lost against bush of all people is tantamount to the fact that they are spineless bitches. I mean at the beginning of 2004 they had an election coming up and they had little to do besides run against Bush! They still fucked it up! They could have ran any number of the primary canidates but the Dem Media assasinated Dean becasue he was too "radical" and they wrote off wesley clark and Dick Gepheart (sp?) after the first primary and managed to choose the shakiest guy possible. Any of the other canidates could have beat GWB. The Dems deserve this loss and it is nobodies fault but their own. They couldn't even beat George Bush for Christ's sake! Its pathetic...
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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."
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FrankieJustTrypt
and fell
Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Re: enough already. [Re: Xlea321]
#3323237 - 11/05/04 04:13 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Edit: replying to MushMaster
Mush, fighting fire with fire doesn't work.
If the democrats want to win, they need to figure out the best way to steal republican votes. Existing democratic voters will likely stay no matter what. The democrats need to find which sub-demographic of the republican party is the weak link and appeal to it.
Obviously it probably won't be the religious right camp. It seems they clash with social liberalism a bit too much to be viable. The lets-kick-some-ass armchair warrior camp is pretty unviable due the fact that republicans have a monopoly on this camp, and trying to be kick-some-ass democrats will disenfranchise the large anti-war camp. The most viable thing I believe would be to appeal to classic/fiscal conservatives. They'll have to target non-dogmatic republicans. Basically stick with the socially liberal platform, but tighten up the fiscal end.
Democratts, overwhelmingly have the major population centers. They need to go after rural votes. I'd reccommend dropping gun control, as i'd say the majority of people don't want, and the anti-gun crowd doesn't really have an option elsewhere. Farmers may be good targets.
And can't forget that the candidate has to have a good personality and an even better standing with the corporate media.... Remember Dean?
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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.
Edited by FrankieJustTrypt (11/05/04 04:14 AM)
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