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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Poppies
    #3314311 - 11/03/04 01:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If someone wanted to grow papaver somniferum, would it be possible to do so buy purchasing a pack of poppy seeds from a grocery store?

Are those seeds likely to produce papaver somniferum plants?

I noticed that the package of seeds is sealed. It is not vacuum sealed, but there is no air exchange. Will the seeds have "suffocated?"


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: Poppies [Re: recalcitrant]
    #3314935 - 11/03/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'd think that the store brand poppies will produce a very low amount of opium, so you'd have to grow a LOT for a good quantity. I'm pretty sure most stores do sell Papaver somniferum L. though, so it should be viable opium. The seeds i sent you should arrive within a week or so, i sent you enough for a cat to grow a few hundred :p. Peace


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InvisibleLifenergy
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
Re: Poppies [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3315063 - 11/03/04 03:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They will grow, but you will dissapointed if you are trying to get opium. You will get a little, but the kind in the grocery store has been bred to be high in thebaine and low in codeine and morphine. That means no good stuff. Poppy seeds from ethno vendors are the way to go. Buy a small amount, grow them out, and you'll never have to buy the seeds again.


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Poppies [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3315241 - 11/03/04 03:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

just wondering if anyone has any proof to back up the claim that grocery store seeds produce less good stuff than bought ? ? ?


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: Poppies [Re: John]
    #3315275 - 11/03/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've just heard from grower friends and such. It does make sense though that they would breed to lower the yield of the good opiates.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Poppies [Re: John]
    #3315286 - 11/03/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sometimes the grocery store seeds are fine, sometimes they are worthless. Why waste your time finding out unless you have no other source of poppy seeds? I have hen's n chicks and gigs if anyone wants to trade for them. I plan to start some seeds very soon myself.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Poppies [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3315322 - 11/03/04 04:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks DMT, I'm just going to wait instead of wasting my money and possibly contaminating the good ones with bad polen.

as for getting seeds from grown plants; I expect I'll have to use a q-tip or something to spread the polen around, as I don't have any bees in the house.

I've been lurking poppies.org, but it seems very slow. As does edot. The shroomery is a very active community apparently.


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: Poppies [Re: recalcitrant]
    #3315351 - 11/03/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure about the pollen, i've never had to deal with that to get seeds (although my tigers only done one indoor grow). Poppies produce so many seeds, it's insane. Having a small patch outside could turn into a large field in just a few years.


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OfflineDeQuincy
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Re: Poppies [Re: DMTelepath]
    #3317757 - 11/04/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"It does make sense though that they would breed to lower the yield of the good opiates"

Are you sure?

Here in this country poppies are grown for both reasons: poppy seeds and alkaloids.
The plants are left in the field to dry. The corp is harvested and the seeds are beaten out and the "bolkaf" i.e. poppy straw is sold to the pharmaceutical industry for morphine production.
We have very little thebaine based pain killers. Mostly morphine and codeine.
Oh and there is a third reason: dried flowers trade.

So why would a farmer restrict himself to one type of crop when he can have both the seeds and the alkaloids?

Further SWIM has harvested kilo's of pods grown from health shop poppy seeds. And he claims (I believe him) these are very good for teas and slushies alike, yummy!
See for yourself:
http://adh.2.forumer.com/index.php?s=18ab3d358527936b6777ace3b14519cc&showtopic=152


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there's no vestige of a beginning no prospect of an end
(hutton)
if you came to conquer, you'll be king for a day, but you too will deteriorate and quickly fade away...
you have NO CONTROL
(bad religion)


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InvisibleLifenergy
Yo Mama

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 766
Re: Poppies [Re: DeQuincy]
    #3318178 - 11/04/04 02:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote from http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2001/plenery/1/fist.htm

"A research project was established at Tasmanian Alkaloids in 1994 in order to develop a high thebaine poppy variety to meet the anticipated demand. Several methods to block the synthetic pathway at thebaine were considered. The merits of mutagenesis versus genetic engineering were debated and the decision was made to utilise mutagenesis, which has proved wise considering the uncertainty regarding genetic engineering. Prior to starting a mutagenesis program, the techniques of inducing the appropriate rate of mutation, and most importantly, the screening techniques, were developed. Mutagenesis has been used in P. somniferum previously but the alkaloid content of large numbers of individual plants had never been tested. Tasmanian Alkaloids developed an analytical method capable of screening 1000 plants per week. The method utilised a tiny droplet of latex collected from an excised leaf. The droplet was extracted in a buffer, and analysed by HPLC utilising a very rapid method. This allowed non-destructive qualitative analysis of young seedlings for the major alkaloids found in latex. Plants with unusual alkaloid profiles were re-tested, and those passing the second test were grown to maturity.

A large number of alkaloid mutants were selected from the M2 population using this method. The most important selection commercially was the 233rd selection, which came to be known as Norman. This plant was free of morphine and codeine, and its latex contained just two major alkaloids, thebaine and oripavine. Oripavine has never previously been available in quantity. It can be methylated to produce thebaine, using a similar process to that used to produce codeine from morphine. Subsequent generations have shown that the morphine-free characteristic is due to a single recessive gene. This new variety was first grown commercially in 1996/7 (500 ha). Since that time the crop area sown to this variety has increased at 50-100% per annum, and it now comprises more than 60% of the crop contracted to Tasmanian Alkaloids. Norman produces approximately the same quantity of alkaloid per hectare as conventional varieties, but as thebaine and oripavine instead of morphine.

The development of the Norman poppy coincided with the release of a slow release formulation of oxycodone in the USA. Oxycodone is used in treatment of strong pain, mostly in terminally ill patients. The new formulation was very successful, and there was greatly increased demand for the thebaine raw material used for its manufacture. The high demand has caused an increase in crop area in India, as well as allowing growth of thebaine crop area in Tasmania. The Indian production however has caused an overproduction of morphine, which is likely to depress prices for both morphine and codeine.

This new poppy variety is a major turning point in alkaloid production. For the first time, thebaine can be produced efficiently without concomitant production of morphine. High alkaloid P. somniferum poppies can be grown without risk of diversion for illicit purposes: thebaine and oripavine are not easily converted into morphine or heroin. Thebaine can be converted into codeine, which is currently the largest volume API produced from opium alkaloids, so perhaps virtually all the world?s opium alkaloids will eventually come from poppies having the Norman mutation.

This innovation, like most of the plant breeding projects in the poppy industry, had virtually no input from the public sector. The ideas developed from discussions in Tasmanian Alkaloids and Johnson & Johnson Research, a J&J Company based in Sydney. It drew on the expertise of analytical chemists, geneticists and agriculturists within the companies."


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OfflineHooty
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Registered: 02/24/03
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Re: Poppies [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3318207 - 11/04/04 02:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

very interesting...


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It will never come true


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Poppies [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3320158 - 11/04/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, that is very interesting.

I'm not sure it affects the poppy seeds in my local safeway though. Is safeway importing seeds from india and tasmania? that article talks about using those p. somniferum plants for pharms, and doesn't mention where the seeds are used.

If ppl like SWIM are finding grocery store poppy seeds that yeild normal alkaloid levels, then wouldn't it make sense for all kinds of p. somniferum to be floating around the market?


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OfflineDeQuincy
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Registered: 03/16/01
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Re: Poppies [Re: recalcitrant]
    #3324044 - 11/05/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

After some thinking I arrived at this:

If you don't have to consider the cost I would go for some good strains from a online entheogenic seed store.

Another good option is to get a case of pods from a vendor or a bunch from a craft shop. Most of the times these pods come with seeds inside them. The good thing about this option is that you can test the pods before you plant the seeds. This way you can be sure your plants will contain what you want. And as a bonus you will get much more seeds than you would get frome a online seed store.

The thirth and by far the cheapest is getting you seeds from the grocery store. The main plus is the large amounth of seeds for little money. This allows you to spread them everywhere soil is turned. That is where new roads, suburbs, railways are build. As wel as other people's gardens. :smile:
The plantation in the link I posted earlier was planted with half a kilo of seeds at the site where a newly part of town is to be build.

So in the end it depents on where you want to plant and how much money you want to spend. And remember: if succesful, you will only need to buy seeds once, since the seeds make up for more than half of the weight of the dried pods.

Hope this clears things up a bit.


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there's no vestige of a beginning no prospect of an end
(hutton)
if you came to conquer, you'll be king for a day, but you too will deteriorate and quickly fade away...
you have NO CONTROL
(bad religion)


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OfflineDMTelepath
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Re: Poppies [Re: DeQuincy]
    #3324349 - 11/05/04 02:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that cleared up the whole topic i think! 5 shrooms for that one :laugh:


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OfflineFungi_x
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Re: Poppies [Re: recalcitrant]
    #3356531 - 11/13/04 06:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Mccormick Poppy seeds are Papaver somniferum http://www.mccormick.com/content.cfm?id=8228

Quote:

Description
Poppy is the dried, kidney-shaped seed of the annual Papaver somniferum. The seeds are very small in size, slate blue in color and are nut-like in flavor.




These are the only ones Im sure are Papaver somniferum.


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OfflineKentuckyPWRLFTR
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Re: Poppies [Re: Fungi_x]
    #3357489 - 11/13/04 10:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

IME, McCormick seeds both grow and have the goods. Germ rates weren't great ... I go with Tassies and Persian Whites ...

My poppy site: http://www.lewed.net/papsomforum/


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"The eternal silence of these infinite spaces frightens me."

OCD had rendered me completely insane and not believable.


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InvisibleLifenergy
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Re: Poppies [Re: KentuckyPWRLFTR]
    #3357943 - 11/14/04 01:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that's pretty concise DMTelepath. I guess everyone who wants some should go out and plant a whole bunch of whatever you can get, try them, if you like them, save the seeds from the ones you like and trash the rest, so even if there is a trend to reduce the alkaloid levels, you can effectively reverse it with a little breeding of your own. Whatever the case, grow those poppies! They are wonderful, wonderful allies. :smile:


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Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.


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OfflineDeQuincy
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Re: Poppies [Re: Lifenergy]
    #3367398 - 11/16/04 03:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:
"They are wonderful, wonderful allies. "

And VERY beautiful too:



I am sorry for the large format of the pic.
But I didn't want to reduce it, as it is sooo beautiful!
Ac.


--------------------
there's no vestige of a beginning no prospect of an end
(hutton)
if you came to conquer, you'll be king for a day, but you too will deteriorate and quickly fade away...
you have NO CONTROL
(bad religion)


Edited by DeQuincy (11/16/04 03:14 AM)


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Poppies [Re: DeQuincy]
    #3369237 - 11/16/04 04:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just trying to get an idea of the lifecycle here.

Below and to the right of that beautiful flower, that thing that looks like a brussel sprout, is that an pod that hasn't flowered yet? And then they flower. And then you get the seed pod that looks like most of the rest of those in the picture?


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Offlinetheocean06
Yeah, I've donefour already...

Registered: 07/10/04
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Re: Poppies [Re: Fungi_x]
    #3369251 - 11/16/04 04:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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The story of life is quicker then the blink of an eye, the story of love is hello, goodbye.            - Hendrix :bow:


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