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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: oggleman]
#3293491 - 10/29/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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oggleman said: What if you're a crack addict?
No rehabilitation? No education? No treatment plan?
People may voluntarily set up rehabilitation clinics.
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Rob a bank? Sure. Mug an old lady? Sure.
Just as long as the big bad gov't doesn't fuck with his shit he can do whatever he wants.
Uh, no. By robbing a bank or mugging an old lady, he is violating their rights and thus is not participating in self-government.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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phi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
#3293550 - 10/29/04 11:53 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Evolving said:
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phi1618 said: When has the free market ever demanded scientific advancements?
Please, educate yourself. Individuals and businesses operating in the free market profit from and fund scientific research EVERY DAY either directly, or indirectly through purchasing the products and services of those that do. Ever heard of Intel? Ever heard of Pfizer?
Pfizer doesn't do basic research, it does product oriented research and development.
There is a distinction here that you don't understand - basic research doesn't directly produce inventions, and is rarely directly funded by industry.
Basic research is research that is done to advance our understanding of the world.
In order for computers to be built, significant advances in mathematics and the theory of computers were needed. These advances were made by men like Turing and von Neumann, who never worked in the private sector.
Basic research is research that advances our understanding of the world, but doens't produce patantable inventions. Additionally, it is not always clear what the eventual outcome will be. When various models of atomic bonding were proposed in the early twentieth century, by university professors relying on government support (ie. Boltzmann), they didn't necessarily anticipate the advances in medicine that these models would enable. When men like Shroedinger, Heisenberg, and von Neumann developed quantum models of basic processes, they weren't necessarily anticipating the extensive work that is now going on with computer modelling of chemical reactions based on quantum models.
These basic advances would have brought no advantage to the company that developed them, and didn't see application for many years after they were made. However, without them, and without the intervening years for the advances to be discussed, refined, and accepted, neither computers nor drugs could be invented by corporate funded research today.
This is what I mean by "scientific advancements" - not a new drug, or faster computer, but a new theory to explain how things occur in the world.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: phi1618]
#3293715 - 10/29/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Please spare us your bullshit equivocations. ALL (or almost all) advancements come upon the foundation of previous discoveries and inventions. Sorry, but new computer chip design and development of pharmaceuticals are scientific advancements, your rationalizations do not change this. Contrary to your tunnel vision view of reality, there are private companies doing basic research and/or funding basic research in various places across the globe. To say that 'neither computers nor drugs could be invented by corporate funded research today' is a specious argument unsupported by facts. It is ignorant to think that all that is good in the world comes from governments, that people acting freely without coercion are incapable of doing things which will better the spiritual and material existence of their fellow man... In other words, hogwash.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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phi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
#3293893 - 10/29/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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The system (for doing basic research - which does not include computer chip design or the development of pharmecueticals, whether you choose to classify such as scientific advancements or not) as it is today works.
It has never worked without government funding (which doesn't mean for certain that it couldn't).
If there was a significant competing system of private funding for basic research, I'd be all for it.
But, the amount of privately funded basic research done today is very small.
There have been cases of corporations setting up very successful labs for basic research, but these have not been great commercial successes.
There are plenty of problems with the system as it is today: lots of resources are wasted in funding worthless research and in the grant process. But, without government funding, basic research (that research which is done solely to advance our understanding of the world, and which only rarely produces patentable inventions) would founder.
Do you actually have a specific proposal for how scientists engaged in basic research could find funding in the absence of gov't funding, or is your only argument "hogwash"?
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Contrary to your tunnel vision view of reality, there are private companies doing basic research and/or funding basic research in various places across the globe.
Ok... Microsoft has a lab that may be engaged in what we term "basic research", though in areas that require comparitively paltry funds. I challenge you to name another.
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To say that 'neither computers nor drugs could be invented by corporate funded research today' is a specious argument unsupported by facts.
That's not an accurate representation of my argument, because it is thourougly out of context. To reiterate: patent-generating research funded by corporations depends on expensive and unprofitable research funded by governments, and could not occur without that scientific foundation.
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It is ignorant to think that all that is good in the world comes from governments, that people acting freely without coercion are incapable of doing things which will better the spiritual and material existence of their fellow man...
I never said anything approximating this. I think there're plenty of problems with gov'ts, and I think that individuals have freely done many great things. I don't even claim that it's theoretically impossible for people to fund research on their own, without a beurocratic and political intermediary.
What I claim is that there is no existing and effective private system for funding basic research, and that most scientific advances (to clarify - by scientific advance I am only refering to significant new theories and laws, not to new inventions or theories that are only applicable to a limitied industrial process) in the twentieth century were government funded; and that if govenment funding for basic research were cut today, basic research would not get done in the US. The public system sucks, but it's all we have.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: oggleman]
#3294760 - 10/29/04 05:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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oggleman said: What if you're a crack addict?
No rehabilitation? No education? No treatment plan? No prison. Crack addiction is a choice. You have the right to destroy yourself any way you see fit. I have no obligation to bail you out. But I won't stop you. That is the dignity of the individual. Rob a bank? Sure. Mug an old lady? Sure. And thus you will be sent to jail for those crimes, No excuses accepted. The whole drug prohibition rationale is based on this big brotherism. Hundreds of thousands of otherwise functional people get sent to prison because they want to get high. Pay particular attention to the "otherwise functional" part here. They are for the most part not a threat. Except the hoodlums who gravitate to the business BECAUSE it is illicit. The prohibition CREATES criminals
Just as long as the big bad gov't doesn't fuck with his shit he can do whatever he wants. No, just as long as he doesn't fuck with my shit, or the little old lady's, or the bank depositors' he can fucking jump off a fucking bridge. I don't care. If he dies, one less loser.
After all, nobody knows how to run his life better than him. Oh, lots of people know better, but nobody else has a right or obligation to. Hopefully it will be done with before he finds a crack ho to reproduce with.
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
#3295954 - 10/30/04 12:05 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with phi1618's explanations of differences between basic research and product development type research. Judging this classification as hogwash seems ignorant, Evolving.
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
#3312301 - 11/02/04 11:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, I'm glad to report that California will vote in favor to "establish a state-sponsored stem cell research group using bonds totaling up to $3 billion; prohibits human cloning by groups that receive funds." This completely dwarfs the federal amount of $35 million Bush allowed. If Kerry loses his election, California is still considered a victory for science and medicine.
This is a small, but very welcomed win for me.
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
#3312305 - 11/02/04 11:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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viaggio said: This is a small, but very welcomed win for me.
And a loss for those of us who favor individual freedom.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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The results of California's Stem Cell Research Group will provide beneficial results for all of Earth's citizens. I'm proud. Thanks, Cali
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
#3313399 - 11/03/04 08:48 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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No it won't, your statement cannot be supported by facts. However, the intitiative will place the state deeper in debt and require either higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas. TANSTAFL
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
#3313508 - 11/03/04 09:08 AM (19 years, 3 months ago) |
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Strange...you felt compelled to piss on my celebration? My speculation is not without merit. Studies published in science and medical journals offer more than optimism, they indicate a strong momentum of evidence. I am confident you would share a similar perspective if you followed the venture more closely.
I am grateful to God and California for the state's initiative. Perhaps others may follow suit before the Federal government increases its contributions? Nonetheless, I see California as a personal victory, but also as one for the greater good. This includes you, Evolving
-------------------- "...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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