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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: d33p]
#3317431 - 11/03/04 09:46 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Most of the Muslim world was chopped up after WWI. The last Islamic empire was the Ottoman empire, which was colonized in 1924. After WWII, much of the uper Middle East was chopped up following the creation of Israel. In the Muslim psyche, 1924 is a dark year. The end of an era. After 1300 years of collective Muslim self rule, it was shattered in a short period of time. The condition of today's third worlders is hardly a religious one. In most poor non-Muslim african nations, there is more killing, genocide and tribalism than any predominate Muslim country. The more poverty, the worst it gets. There are people in Africa still who massacre villages because they believe their chickens were possessed by demons from a rival tribe. Compare that to a more well off Muslim country, like Turkey, where the country's conservatives resemble the Republican party in the U.S. more than anything. Economics and geopolitics has a huge role in the current Muslim psyche - before colonization, the khilafah offered a system for both.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zahudulallah]
#3318120 - 11/04/04 12:13 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you even acknowledge American transgressions against Muslims?
Maybe if you'd ever actually list one of these "transgressions" rather than just presuming we'll agree there have been any you might get further. Be specific, Zahid.
pinky
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zahudulallah
Sexual Heretic
Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Phred]
#3318386 - 11/04/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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-The unconditional support for the state of Israel by providing it with the weaponry that is later used to kill Palestinian Muslims.
-America's first attack on Iraq which killed 158,000 Muslims, nearly half of which were women and children.
-U.S. backed U.N. economic sanctions on Iraq following the first Iraq war, which killed 1.5 million Muslims, 650,000 of which were children.
-U.S. support for the repressive regime of Egypt under Hosni Mubarak.
-U.S. support for the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia under the al-Saud Monarchy; with the presence of U.S. troops on the Muslim Holy Land to add insult to injury.
-U.S. bombing of Libya in 1982 and 1986 which killed several hundred Muslims.
-Several hundred thousands Somalis died in civil war encouraged by Christian covert war-lords in surrounding countries assisted by the United States.
-U.S. Forces killed several hundred Somalis in 1995, just to capture one person Col. Aideed.
-U.S. led invasion/occupation of Afghanistan in late 2001/early 2002 that killed 4,000 Muslims.
-U.S. led invasion/occupation of Iraq in 2003 that killed some 80,000 Muslims
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zahudulallah]
#3319740 - 11/04/04 12:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's the best you can do? Let's look at these supposed "transgressions" one by one, shall we? -The unconditional support for the state of Israel by providing it with the weaponry that is later used to kill Palestinian Muslims. Have any Muslims been killed by weaponry supplied by other countries? Hint -- think Russia, China, France. The US, after years of indifference, finally sold Israel some weaponry which Israel used to defend itself against neighboring Arab countries who chose to attack her. If you prefer to categorize this as "transgression" on the part of the US, there is no point attempting to engage you in a rational discussion. -America's first attack on Iraq which killed 158,000 Muslims, nearly half of which were women and children. This "attack" was part of the UN-approved effort to expel Hussein from Kuwait. As for killing Muslims, you are of course aware that Hussein has killed more Muslims than anyone in the last century and probably in all of recorded history. Those Muslim deaths are the result of Hussein's adventurism, not the UN's response to it. -U.S. backed U.N. economic sanctions on Iraq following the first Iraq war, which killed 1.5 million Muslims, 650,000 of which were children. You can whine all you want about the UN sanctions being supported by the US, but the fact remains they were UN sanctions. As for the numbers of people who supposedly died due to the sanctions, they are completely imaginary numbers, as has been shown in this forum before using the words of the researchers who did the studies those imaginary numbers are allegedly extrapolated from. Finally, Hussein was responsible for the sanctions being imposed in the first place. -U.S. support for the repressive regime of Egypt under Hosni Mubarak. Jesus H Christ. Pretty much EVERY Muslim country in the world is headed by a repressive regime. It's the nature of Islam, fa cryin' out loud! Is the US to stop dealing with them all? Must other countries also stop dealing with them or do they get a free pass because they are not the US? -U.S. support for the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia under the al-Saud Monarchy; Again, see above. And let's face it Zahid -- with the Taliban out of the picture, Saudi Arabia and Iran are the two most theocratic Muslim regimes in the world now. They're the ones who are the closest to pure Sharia law. Why should this bug Muslims? ...with the presence of U.S. troops on the Muslim Holy Land to add insult to injury. Give me a break. Did a US troop ever enter a mosque in Mecca or Medina? The mere presence of foreign troops on a hunk of sand larger than all the US east of the Mississippi is considered a "transgression" by Muslims who live neither in Saudi nor the US? Not even the most devout Muslims believe the entire Saudi peninsula to be a "sacred" place. I realize that Muslims will declare a place to be a holy shrine if Mohammed ever even cast his shadow over it at some point, but there's gotta be limits. Besides, the troops were there to keep the secular and godless false Muslim Saddam Hussein from desecrating those holy lands. -U.S. bombing of Libya in 1982 and 1986 which killed several hundred Muslims. Oh, please. Libya wasn't bombed because Muslims live there, it was bombed because Khaddafi was a freaking terrorist. -Several hundred thousands Somalis died in civil war encouraged by Christian covert war-lords in surrounding countries assisted by the United States. You can't possibly be serious! Do you know even the tiniest little bit about the history of Somalia? The UN peacekeeping force was there to keep Muslims from being killed, fa cryin' out loud! You are beyond belief. -U.S. Forces killed several hundred Somalis in 1995, just to capture one person Col. Aideed. See above. -U.S. led invasion/occupation of Afghanistan in late 2001/early 2002 that killed 4,000 Muslims. There is no need to comment on this ridiculousness. -U.S. led invasion/occupation of Iraq in 2003 that killed some 80,000 Muslims. 1) The number 80,000 is imaginary. 2) Hussein bears responsibility for the invasion of Iraq. This is why we don't take your comments seriously, Zahid. Trying to paint Muslims as victims of Western (specifically American) "transgressions" is a non-starter. pinky
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Phred]
#3319774 - 11/04/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said: 2) Hussein bears responsibility for the invasion of Iraq.
I know you're a fan of the 'initiation of force' mentality. Who do you think initiated the force in this situation?
I know you've had to argue this point a hundred times already, but I don't think I've seen it. If you want to pull an Anno and just link me, that's cool.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Gijith]
#3319817 - 11/04/04 12:48 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh, god. here we go...
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Vvellum]
#3319821 - 11/04/04 12:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just want a link!!!!
You're right, let's not get into it.
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EonTan
bird
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zahudulallah]
#3320077 - 11/04/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't take money to attack only military targets. It takes a desire to avoid civilian casualties. This is the opposite of what Terrorists do.
Don't think they are justified in what they do. Desperate people don't target civilians, killers do. Desperate people without money can blow up military tagets only, if they WANT TO.
How about a global campaighn to get every nation on earth to vote to stop doing business with America. If the majority of people in every nation say stop, you stop. Then our foreighn policy can't effect you. GET IT. At some point in time, every nation in the world is going to have to take at least some of the blame for their own interactions with the USA. I know it is easier just to blame the USA, but it really is ludicrous.
Our foreighn policy is only as stong as you allow it to be. Americans can't enter your country if you prohibit us from coming. We can't sell you weapons if you prohibit them, we can't do a GD thing if you don't let us.
Don't want us invading countries like Iraq, then don't agree to holding them accountable for there actions(un) and then decide to not hold them accountable(un). America will defend itself against It's percieved enemies. Not liking us is not grounds. Failing to follow the agreed upon terms of diarming your nation of WMD, might get you shot. Failing to police your nation of organized groups openly training to perform Acts of Terrorism against the USA and there allies, might get you shot.
Americans are not ignorant of our actions. WE know we act out of self interest. WE also KNOW that we cannot do anything in your NATIONS without YOUR ASSISTANCE. GET IT.
Blame your own governmnets, your own populations for failing to make your nations what you expect them to be.
In America when we fail at feeding our populations we don't blame YOU. WE blame ourselves, and we strive to fix the problem. We are split down the middle on how to do so, but we Realize it is our problem to fix, Not YOURS. If we need to borrow money from another country, we expect that money to have strings attached to it, we have no problem with interest, POLITICAL or FINANCIAL.
The world needs to hold up a mirror to itself, and point the finger. Then say out loud. I am the problem not America. My country is having problems, not America. My nation is failing, not America. Then put a microscope up to America and say what are they doing differently then us, and Why is it working so well for them.
If your nation is doing well, then you have no complaints. If your nation is doing poorly. I can guarentee it is becasue of the population living within it's borders and there inability to make things work with the Beliefs they hold dear. You may not like America but you have absolutely no right to blame it for the problems within your own borders.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: EonTan]
#3320585 - 11/04/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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This may have been asked before, but will someone please explain to me the difference between Zahid and Zahudulallah. As far as I'm concerned he/she can spout whatever crap he/she wants to, but I thought Zahid was supposed to be some jerk-off's idea of a social experiment in which he/she made deliberately inflammatory statements for the sole purpose of eliciting and gauging reactions. Seems to be the same stupid shit to me.
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zappaisgod]
#3320659 - 11/04/04 04:21 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you consider yourself an "innocent civilian " ?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Did you mean to ask me???? And no, I am not the least bit innocent, of almost anything you can find to accuse me of.
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: d33p]
#3320736 - 11/04/04 04:34 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why are you guys making it a "we against muslims" ? Polarizing stuff here!
I dont think US intended to harm "the muslims" but they want to kill extremists. Cause of fear that they might hurt US.
Fear is often a bad advisor. Now many of the eveil bombs did not hit terrorists but schools (a wedding!!) and civilians. Which creates "terrorists".
You know what we called the Dutch who sniped Nazi's when they were occupying us: Freedom Fighters.
Israel is actually stolen by the international community, lot of freedom fights there. I understand. (the jews who get suicidebombed I understand too dont 4get that) What is US (and the rest of the world) doing about this? Nothing, only defending the pig Sharon. Who also has wiped out villages with women children completely. Belgium wanted him in court. US put pressure on Belgium, Belgium stopped the process.
Iraq is occupied. When your child is blown up you dont give a f00k about a far away powerhorny man called Bush. You dont want his fooking demoNcraZy. You want your daughter.
You hear stories about other people who got killed, one day when they need freedom fighters you join them.
Hey a terrorist... Hmmmmm Kill him!!!
Would YOU sacrifice your daughter for demoncrazy ???
MF
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: d33p]
#3320745 - 11/04/04 04:36 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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No evolving is...
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Phred]
#3320814 - 11/04/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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"This is why we don't take your comments seriously, Zahid."
Who is "WE"?
The most comments this man gives show more intelligence then all of the bullet bomb kill them all red neck comments together.
Even though I disagree with what he is stating about US against muslims.
NOW that is coming up, here on the shrooemery even and in other parts of the world, the polarisation of a religion. Islam.
Like Hitler did with the Jews. I already compared "Evolving" to Hitler as he tried to make us believe that in Holland everyone sees every muslim as a piece of unwelcome garbage etc. That is hardly the case.
As a result the world stole Israel, which occupied even more land! Untill today a big problem. You want to solve terrorism, solve that problem then which the west has created. But they dont, they maintain the problem. The west is maintaining terrorism. Fighting it. A circle. Good for defense industry. Bad for oil prizes, bad for your feeling of security. And you might be right to feel insecure. Talking so easy about killing people. Dont be amazed when you see your drop on the floor in front of you!
And you are hiding behind the UN pinky.
Good luck,
MF
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zappaisgod]
#3320845 - 11/04/04 04:59 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did you mean to ask me???? And no, I am not the least bit innocent, of almost anything you can find to accuse me of.
Ok we agree on this part. You are a legitimate target then for enemies! Agree again?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Come for me. Given my acceptance of my guilt and targethood, am I not entitled to scan my horizons for likely enemies, and to take extreme and prejudicial action against them, yeah so they might not smite me before their turn?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Quote:
MushroomFriend said: "This is why we don't take your comments seriously, Zahid."
Who is "WE"?
The most comments this man gives show more intelligence then all of the bullet bomb kill them all red neck comments together.
Even though I disagree with what he is stating about US against muslims.
NOW that is coming up, here on the shrooemery even and in other parts of the world, the polarisation of a religion. Islam.
Like Hitler did with the Jews. I already compared "Evolving" to Hitler as he tried to make us believe that in Holland everyone sees every muslim as a piece of unwelcome garbage etc. That is hardly the case.
As a result the world stole Israel, which occupied even more land! Untill today a big problem. You want to solve terrorism, solve that problem then which the west has created. But they dont, they maintain the problem. The west is maintaining terrorism. Fighting it. A circle. Good for defense industry. Bad for oil prizes, bad for your feeling of security. And you might be right to feel insecure. Talking so easy about killing people. Dont be amazed when you see your drop on the floor in front of you!
And you are hiding behind the UN pinky.
Good luck,
MF
Do you speak English? The best points made here are in a fairly precise English erudition. Sometimes there are typos but we can usually figure thise out. Crobih's posts are completely indecipherable as is this last one of yours.
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Crobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: EonTan]
#3321015 - 11/04/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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kadakuda: totaly agree, although i couldnt understand a coupel things. if it keeps up there's gonna be a lot of pretty bad shit go down. Unless Osama is a player of American oligarchy, Al Quaida is going to show to the fellow Americans it was not Bush's strategy that was keepeing you terrorism free trough all of this time. But, let suppose Osama wont hit by you the whole force from the begining, because he wants you to start fighting against the terrorism, or better to say, your oligarchy that has no natural enemy at this time. But sooner it gets its natural enemy, sooner we shall see the future that makes sense. d33p: Based on your rationale a young son of a firefighter who died on 9/11 has the legitimate right to explode a nuclear bomb in mecca right near that black stone on that big day of worship. No, it does not. Remember, collateral damages is regular stuff in any war and this war you started was illegitimate in the eyes of the World. retread: The thing is, it gets to a point of who is doing the attack and who is doing the retaliation? If they have the right to retaliate, then so do we. They would attack (or retaliate depending on yourp oint of view) and then we would attack/retaliate. I think that is how we'll destroy terrorism, actually. After 9/11, where they killed three thousand people, we froze most of their assets, killed great gobs of them, prevented them from using Afghanistan as a training ground. When they attack us next we'll push harder on them because the public will support more wars to root out the terrorists. Eventually we will kill them because our ETEF is so much greater than theirs. Or we could just be friends... or stop pissing them off... The only thing that can save you is the just. Not force, because today we are all strong enough to kill as many people as we cant be able to pay off. And the just was ruined by your action. Becasue you attacked the place you where no reason to, just to keep your power on. The power that keeps your oligarchy fucking all of us together. The power you seize to remember, we all have. The power to kill and destroy. But, you where ignorant to that and I am afraid it is a pay back time.
Edited by Crobih (11/04/04 05:44 PM)
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: zappaisgod]
#3321054 - 11/04/04 05:51 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Come for me. Given my acceptance of my guilt and targethood, am I not entitled to scan my horizons for likely enemies, and to take extreme and prejudicial action against them, yeah so they might not smite me before their turn?
Its ok just go on entitling yourself, why not piece of scared cannonfodder! :P
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Edited by MushroomFriend (11/04/04 05:52 PM)
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MushroomFriend
I smell a conspiracy!
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 4,055
Loc: The Druid Peak Pack.
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Retaliation is legitimate [Re: Crobih]
#3321073 - 11/04/04 05:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Exactly.
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