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Offlinedeafpanda
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A good leader
    #3303952 - 11/01/04 09:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Bush supporters call him a man of principles. They know where he stands. They criticise Kerry for "flip-flopping" or pandering to the polls. But isn't it better to have a "puppet of the people" than a man with deeply held beliefs not shared by all? Surely the public should be in the driving seat rather than the president?

Presidents shouldn't be leaders. They should be implementers of the public will.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3303959 - 11/01/04 09:50 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I quite agree but I dont think the current system allows for that in any way shape or form and it will not do so until the cult of personalilty politics ends and people are given the chance to vote on issues.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304027 - 11/01/04 10:33 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the masses are incurably ignorant - Plato

This is not a democracy, rather a Republic. Democracy is mobb rule where 9 people vote to kill the tenth.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304132 - 11/01/04 11:18 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Presidents shouldn't be leaders. They should be implementers of the public will.

they should be neither.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: ]
    #3304139 - 11/01/04 11:20 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What should they be then?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304156 - 11/01/04 11:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree, they SHOULD be leaders. Nothing is wrong with leading. A good leader should strive to do what's best for the group (relying on the constitution) they are leading. The patriot act for example is a leadership decision that isn't. Striving to lead the charge for cheaper healthcare at the same time not violating others rights is a good decision. We desperatly need a good leader that is in touch, to date in the modern scheme we have had none. (this is not to say that we are all followers)

edit: Silversoul (below) basically summerized what I meant to say.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (11/01/04 11:39 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304160 - 11/01/04 11:28 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
What should they be then?



They should be protectors and upholders of the Constitution and individual rights, regardless of whether or not it coincides with public opinion.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304199 - 11/01/04 11:45 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

a good statesman should neither attempt to lead the people he serves in the direction he sees appropriate, nor use the power of his office to allow a majority to reign over a minority. a good statesman should protect individual liberty.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: A good leader [Re: ]
    #3304261 - 11/01/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

how does one protect individual liberty without being a leader?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: silversoul7]
    #3304303 - 11/01/04 12:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think that they should present the case for various actions and so in that sense play a leading role, but I don't think that they should make the decisions. I think that they should lead debate and fall back on the public (however stupid we may be) to actually decide. Otherwise what sort of a democracy is it?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: silversoul7]
    #3304344 - 11/01/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

They should be protectors and upholders of the Constitution and individual rights, regardless of whether or not it coincides with public opinion.




What mandate do they have to do this? What makes government rule legitimate if not by consent from the public?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304521 - 11/01/04 01:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Quote:

They should be protectors and upholders of the Constitution and individual rights, regardless of whether or not it coincides with public opinion.




What mandate do they have to do this? What makes government rule legitimate if not by consent from the public?



Government rule is legitimate when it protects the rights of individuals. Whenever it infringes upon those rights, it is illegitimate.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: silversoul7]
    #3304528 - 11/01/04 02:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

And what makes these rights legitimate?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304533 - 11/01/04 02:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
I think that they should present the case for various actions and so in that sense play a leading role, but I don't think that they should make the decisions. I think that they should lead debate and fall back on the public (however stupid we may be) to actually decide. Otherwise what sort of a democracy is it?



America is not, nor was it ever intended to be, a democracy. It was created as a Constitutionally-limited Republic. In a democracy, 51% of the population can vote away the rights of the other 49%. In a Constitutional Republic, the rights of a single individual stand sovereign over the will of every other person.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: silversoul7]
    #3304545 - 11/01/04 02:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, so the constitution makes rights legitimate. What makes the constitution legitimate? It has to be public consent. And then we're back to square one.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304553 - 11/01/04 02:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think you're beginning to split hairs, to be honest.

The people at the time of it's creation made it legitamite.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: A good leader [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3304565 - 11/01/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What I'm getting at is that the government should serve the will of its citizens. I'm just trying to show that the rights the government upholds are not sacrosanct, but are an indication of what the majority wants.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304568 - 11/01/04 02:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
And what makes these rights legitimate?



The fact that you are born with them. You have a life, and you own it. No other person has a higher claim over your life than you do, regardless of what they might believe. Therefore, you have a right to your life. With life comes liberty, the freedom to do as you choose. Your right to liberty is legitimate so long as it does not infringe upon the life, liberty, or property of others. Property is the product of your life and liberty. You may use your effort and resources to make something, say a sweater for instance, and that becomes your property. You can also exchange property with others or freely give it away, but when force is used, it is a violation of your rights. You work at a job for a wage that you and your employer have agreed to, and so by contractual obligation, they give you that money, which becomes your property. It legitimately belongs to you, even if some criminal steals it or the government taxes it away(which is basically the same thing with a different label and more bureacracy). Everyone, whether rich or poor, white or black, gay or straight, etc. has the same rights, and everyone is equally obligated to respect the rights of others. Nobody is above this, no matter if it's one person, a majority, or a government official.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304576 - 11/01/04 02:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Ok, so the constitution makes rights legitimate. What makes the constitution legitimate? It has to be public consent. And then we're back to square one.



Actually, no. People have rights regardless of the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution made this abundantly clear in the 9th and 10th Amendment. The Constitution merely restricts government(in theory, anyway) from violating people's rights. It did indeed require a majority approval to become law, but our rights do not require the approval of anyone to exist.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A good leader [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304584 - 11/01/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
What I'm getting at is that the government should serve the will of its citizens. I'm just trying to show that the rights the government upholds are not sacrosanct, but are an indication of what the majority wants.



So in the 1800's, you would have supported slavery, right? After all, the majority supported it, so therefore Africans must not have rights.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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