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 ninjapixie
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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 Exorcisms? 
#3283240 - 10/27/04 07:33 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone think they're legit?
On the last episode of John Safran vs God (funny aussie show) John gets exorcised by American Bob Larson. It was pretty freaky. There was no way John was acting. My guess is he was hypnotised in some way.
Since John had participated in a number of religious rituals for the show (Buddhism, Hindu, voodoo, peyote etc), Bob said he had to be cleansed of the 'demons' he encountered from them.
If it was legit, it just confirms there is some truth to those other religions. But which is the right god? Perhaps a voodoo priest should exorcise Jesus out of christians.
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Lakimada
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Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 83
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yeah i think it is kind of hypnosis
i heard saffran talking on the radio to rove of all people. saying that he can't remember anything about it only parts when he was talking to bob larson about what he has done. but said the experience was amazing saying that he was unbeleivably happy from that moment on and like a big weight has been lifted off of his shoulders.
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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Re: Exorcisms? [Re: Lakimada]
#3283266 - 10/27/04 07:43 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah it definately changed him in some way. On the dvd Bob gets John to accept Jesus as his saviour. I probably would as well with so many people watching you and the threat of being hit with that bible again.
They also showed on the dvd John trying to pick up some chick at the exorcism lol.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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Lakimada
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/04
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hahhahaha
the things that gets me is how can he make john renounce all the rituals and his old faiths without his consent???
being a jew and all
see some of the peoples eyes from the crowd, and all chanting b/s to him...
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 417
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Re: Exorcisms? [Re: Lakimada]
#3283300 - 10/27/04 07:55 AM (19 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah Bob really had some power over him. Really felt sorry for John. The forgiving Hitler was also pretty disturbing.
You gotta admitt Bobs are pretty smart guy with alot of talent for what he does, like most con-men.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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 Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
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"But which is the right god?"
only the right god is the right god?
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Disclaimer!?
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Lakimada
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 83
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especially telling him to release all the devil and demons that are inside of him, telling him that all that he has grown up with and experienced in life was the work of the devil and he is the devil and such.
but i can see where forgiveness come into play though..
yeah not only was he smart but charasmic probably why everybody liked him
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lovelight
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Yes, I saw that episode too... It does seem like a kind of hypnosis, but I think the ideas behind exoricsms are present in other rituals too. Partly related to placebo effect and the mind's belief. For very different purposes and in a different context, some shamanic rituals utilise similar techniques. Especially on that collective level, with all the other people contributing.
There is a raise in energy levels, of drama, a building of emotion, and with such high belief behind it. Everyone focusing their thoughts as energy, honing in on one goal. Although this is usually under the influence of entheogens, there is a similar trance state, the shaman can create a fear, or an awe around an object or type of behaviour. Especially with those taking part having no preconceived notions but having full trust in the purpose. However the purpose in shamanic tribes might be for healing or for casting a 'spell' on an individual. Like an exorcism, it largely depends on the receiver's expectations and beliefs too.
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Turn on your lovelight, let it shine on me
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ninjapixie
newbie
Registered: 02/06/04
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I wonder what this says about Johns expectations and beliefs.
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Put that monkey back in the oven.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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It is common for people to see a shamanic healing as a sort of exorcism, but there is more to it than that. Most shamanic cultures recognize that illness' have several components. There is a physical, psychological, and a spiritual component to illness. A shaman was usually an accomplish healer proficient in herbal remedies as well as advanced care like the setting of broken bones or even minor surgery. These treatments were used in combination with a shamanic ritual. The ritual would address the psychological and spiritual aspect of the illness while the medical treatment addressed the physical symptoms. It was not as simple as just being possessed by the devil because more often the ritual performed was NOT for driving spirits out, but for retrieving the victims soul. Illness was more often attributed to the individual losing a component of their spirit due to a traumatic illness or injury (or malicious sorcery). The physical symptoms could be treated, but until the victim's spirit was intact true healing could not commence. This process is refered to as "soul retrieval". The shaman does not try to get his subject to renounce a god or entity as the shaman sees the problem independant of the patient's personal belief. No faith was (or is) required on the part of the patient as far as the shaman is concerned. Shamanism does not require any faith because it makes one aware of their own personal reality through verification obtained by it's practice. So, a shaman is not really an exorcist.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (10/27/04 09:41 PM)
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lovelight
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yes, I agree with you on most points, and no a shaman is not an exorcist. I am aware of the complexities of healing procedures too, and that this mostly isn't like an exorcism either. So watching this show I was extremely surprised myself to see a relationship between these. But it made me think about the power of belief and the subconscious, and the human psyche, especially the collective.
As for no faith being required by the patient: shamanic tribes had strong ideas on reality, considering the other ones seen under the influence of entheogens just as important as the one experienced in normal consciousness. the people walked these same worlds, so must cover a common ground. I think that even if only on a subconscious level, any person part of such a culture and belief system must be able to relate to the ideas on some level. Obviously not enough is known about such functions of the brain, but I see it as somewhat of a maluable technology, very perceptable to outside influences as well. Plus there seems a special power in numbers - when certain amounts of people are on the same level, connected by the same purpose and therefore sharing a thoughtfield. I really have no certain answer, just some thoughts.
Thanks for replying, your knowledge is intriguing. 
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Turn on your lovelight, let it shine on me
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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I view shamanism as a collection of tools not unlike software development tools...but the platform for development is the brain. Shamanism requires no real faith...just an interest, because shamanism is not selling a theology, only a set of practices. A shaman could just as easily be a Jew or a Christian as well as fire dancing "heathen". The practice helps you to discover your own spiritual reality which you then have DIRECT experience with. So, faith is a moot point whan you have been provided with a working model which behaves predictably. Faith is what is required to maintain a belief in the face of the unknown, if it is a relative known faith is not required. That is why I said faith was unimportant as relates to shamanism...faith implies a preconcieved notion. One should approach uncovering the unknown with NO preconieved notions.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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Read Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Living Americans by Malachi Martin. The book changed my concept of evil from the 'Privatio Boni' (Absence of Good) theory to one of Infernal Intelligences.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Aldous
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I hesitated to post again about this, but since the thread's there, I might as well do it.
Some time ago, I posted about being possessed. And yes, Markos, you advised me to read the same book, which I didn't (yet).
Recently, I tripped alone on a decent amount of shrooms, and the beast(s) came back, only this time I was able to control it. I would sit in front of the mirror, and if I let go, I would spotaneously start heavily grimacing again. My mirror image was truly diabolical. But if I wanted it to stop, I could just regain control and get normal again. I just didn't know if I should explore this, let go of my control and see what happens, or fight it. My trip ended in a pretty ritualistic atmosphere (with, among other things, the urge to sing and an uncontrollable drive to light a cigarette (I don't smoke anymore) and blow the smoke on my body like shamans do - this all happened very naturally and spontaneously).
Since that first experience with demons in Peru, I started reading some Jung however (pretty much only his late autobiography for the moment, but others will follow for sure). For the first time, this experience seemed to make sense. Jung says that the purpose and fulfillment of life is individuation, and that it starts by facing one's shadow side, one's 'demons'. He also seems to believe very strongly in the actuality of demons, whatever the concept one chooses to apply to their 'objective' reality (true evil spirit, dark aspect of one's personality,...).
The emergence of a demonic phenomenon in a person could easily be seen, I guess, as the manifestation of a 'live' archetype. The problem is, I've read almost nothing by him and he seems pretty lonely with his theories, which appear to be vastly interesting.
So I turn to other people who know their Jung better than I do, and especially to you, Markos, who seems to have read about every book published since the Bible, the Hammurabi codex and Gutenberg. My question is: what can you say about demons in a Jungian perspective? Thanks a lot for thinking about it.
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Wusha
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Registered: 03/18/12
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Re: Exorcisms? [Re: Aldous]
#16051189 - 04/06/12 01:44 AM (12 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Aldous said:
I hesitated to post again about this, but since the thread's there, I might as well do it.
Some time ago, I posted about being possessed. And yes, Markos, you advised me to read the same book, which I didn't (yet).
Recently, I tripped alone on a decent amount of shrooms, and the beast(s) came back, only this time I was able to control it. I would sit in front of the mirror, and if I let go, I would spotaneously start heavily grimacing again. My mirror image was truly diabolical. But if I wanted it to stop, I could just regain control and get normal again. I just didn't know if I should explore this, let go of my control and see what happens, or fight it. My trip ended in a pretty ritualistic atmosphere (with, among other things, the urge to sing and an uncontrollable drive to light a cigarette (I don't smoke anymore) and blow the smoke on my body like shamans do - this all happened very naturally and spontaneously).
Since that first experience with demons in Peru, I started reading some Jung however (pretty much only his late autobiography for the moment, but others will follow for sure). For the first time, this experience seemed to make sense. Jung says that the purpose and fulfillment of life is individuation, and that it starts by facing one's shadow side, one's 'demons'. He also seems to believe very strongly in the actuality of demons, whatever the concept one chooses to apply to their 'objective' reality (true evil spirit, dark aspect of one's personality,...).
The emergence of a demonic phenomenon in a person could easily be seen, I guess, as the manifestation of a 'live' archetype. The problem is, I've read almost nothing by him and he seems pretty lonely with his theories, which appear to be vastly interesting.
So I turn to other people who know their Jung better than I do, and especially to you, Markos, who seems to have read about every book published since the Bible, the Hammurabi codex and Gutenberg. My question is: what can you say about demons in a Jungian perspective? Thanks a lot for thinking about it.
Holy fcken shit dude! I do the same thing in the mirror! With snapping back into control and all that too...
are we schizo's? What have you learned?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Exorcisms? [Re: Wusha]
#16052733 - 04/06/12 01:12 PM (12 years, 12 days ago) |
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Aldous will reply 7 years from now. Be sure to check back. 
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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the beast(s) came back... I would spotaneously start heavily grimacing
I bought an exorcise bike on Ebay to keep myself in shape. It makes me grimace if I peddle really hard. Should I be worried? 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Exorcisms? [Re: Diploid]
#16053778 - 04/06/12 05:57 PM (12 years, 12 days ago) |
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No joke: There was a moron years ago that tried to start a new sport which he called bike-running. The object was the same as in any race - to get to the finish first, but in this event you ran alongside of your bike - never getting on. I failed to get the point.
When I asked the 'inventor' what he thought of the idea of running a race with skis on your shoulder called ski-running, he looked at me as if I were demented. 
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,172
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he's right
yay bike running!
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GuruBushHippie
MountainMan
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If you fall for an exorcism you're fucking stupid.
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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.
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