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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Stem Cell Research
    #3289985 - 10/28/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As those of you living in California may know, there's a ballot measure this year that would give funding to stem cell research. I'm sure you all know my position on this, but I thought I'd share a different perspective. I was recently talking to my grandfather, who is a Green Party member, and he said that he also plans on voting against this measure. He said that considering how bad health care is for the poor, he doesn't see the wisdom in funding research that will lead to procedures which will only benefit the wealthy. Just something for the leftists here to consider.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3290029 - 10/28/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

why should my tax money pay for it?

lift the bans and allow private enterprise
undertake the endeavor.

it's ri-goddamn-diculous


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: afoaf]
    #3290046 - 10/28/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
why should my tax money pay for it?

lift the bans and allow private enterprise
undertake the endeavor.

it's ri-goddamn-diculous



:thumbup:

No tax monies should be used for any medical research or healthcare.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3290133 - 10/28/04 05:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with you for once. There's enough foundations out there to do the research and more important things for tax money to go to.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: afoaf]
    #3290832 - 10/28/04 08:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
why should my tax money pay for it?

lift the bans and allow private enterprise
undertake the endeavor.

it's ri-goddamn-diculous




There are not now, nor have there ever been bans on stem cell research, embryonic or adult. There is a ban on federal money being spent on research outside of the embryonic stem cell lines which were already extant, I'm going to guess, three years ago. What the administration objects to is the deliberate creation of a zygote or blastula for the sole purpose of research. A very large percentage of the population (not me) considers a zygote a human. This is not a restriction. Zero federal money should be spent on this. If private industry sees that there is a potential that out weighs the effort and risk of failure, then it will pursue these avenues. We don't need emotional, ignorant nitwits directing where research resources should be directed. John Edwards, "If we are elected people like Christopher Reeve will walk again." What a dick. And this from someone who sues with bad science and tries to get the dumbest jury ppossible.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3290848 - 10/28/04 08:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The government shouldn't fund stem cell research but they shouldn't limit it either.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3290871 - 10/28/04 08:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

They don't. Did you read what I wrote?


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3290911 - 10/28/04 08:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I was merely making a point against the current Republican stance on stem cell research.


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Offlinestarptv23
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3291408 - 10/28/04 11:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think stem cell research is needed...I donated my sons placenta when he was born to help stem cell research ..and i am far from being a left wing thinker..if it was your family-Friend or even if it is a stranger that touched your life for a second fighting for his/her life from a horrible sickness...anything i can do or even are government can do to help is a great thing...i think heath care should be free...i pay taxes just like everyone else and i want to do my part to help even if it is tuff for us sometimes... :crazy2: :eek:


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"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: starptv23]
    #3291685 - 10/29/04 12:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Government paid health care IS NOT free.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3291733 - 10/29/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, SS7.
There's enough private interest in stem cells to keep the research going without federal funding.

However, there are many avenues of science that private industries have no interest in. There are also avenues of science where industry only funds research to deliberately manipulate the data and radically fuck up our uderstanding of the natural world.

As someone who is personally involved with such a field, I can assure you that government grants can be a godsend to the advancement of science.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Registered: 10/20/04
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #3291784 - 10/29/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Government paid health care IS NOT free.

Yeah, neither is health care that is paid for by your job and left to companies that exist for their own profit margins. It is a good point your grandfather brings up but I feel that voting for or agaisnt this measure has little to do with the amount of health care that the poor get. That is a completely different monster and the two are not related (as far as funding goes).


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3291832 - 10/29/04 12:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why is your grandfather assuming stem cell therapy will only be available for the wealthy?  There are so many people who would benefit from stem cell therapy, that I'm confident the treatment's demand would spawn ideas to make it affordable.  I think the collaboration efforts of government and private funding will bring harnessing the novelty of stem cells faster.  Now refer to sig :thumbup:

:tongue:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #3291861 - 10/29/04 12:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Do you really think that the treatments that come from stem cell research will not cost an arm and a leg? Do you honestly believe that people on MedicAid will be able to afford such treatments? His position, though I disagree with it, is that we need that money to provide free health care for the poor, not to do this kind of research.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3291933 - 10/29/04 01:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the money going to stem cell research isn't coming out of the "poor people's medical fund", is it?I wouldnt be surprised if Bsuh put that money into the fight against abortions so there aren't as much stem cells to work with. This reminds me of the poor people in Vancouver who were against having the Olympics because they wanted cheaper housing.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #3291945 - 10/29/04 01:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

First of all, this is a state measure, so Bush would have nothing to do with it. Second of all, it's a matter of health care. He was saying how people complain that there's not enough funding for better health care for the poor, and then they vote to fund stem cell research, which will primarily benefit the rich.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineViaggio
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Registered: 07/05/03
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3291948 - 10/29/04 01:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm gonna make up a term to describe my point. A "social directive" is something that focuses on the greater good, something that benefits all. There are several social directives that our taxes already fund: defense, education, traffic infrastructure, welfare, an much more. Health is beginning to emerge as another social directive, therefor, some of our collective effort should be dedicated to this as well. There is all kinds of government funded medical research today. Why not shift and boost some of this funding into stem cell research if the results could benefit such a large part of our population?

Free healthcare for the poor is also what I would classify as a social directive. Despite the fact it may not benefit a financially sound citizen directly, it is like a safety net; there when you need it (like public education). However, it is wise for citizens to direct some of our governments funds toward other greater goods. Deciding where and how to concentrate funding will be forever debatable because everyone has their own idea of priority.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #3291956 - 10/29/04 01:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Deciding where and how to concentrate funding will be forever debatable because everyone has their own idea of priority.



This is one reason why I favor keeping that money in the hands of the people so that they can decide for themselves what their priorities are.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #3292003 - 10/29/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Unless I've misunderstood, I disagree with that. Sure, if people could govern themselves, then I'm sure social directives might be met. But most people can't govern themselves, so we embrace a system that assists us. Like the humans that created it, our system is not perfect, but it does offer us a certain quality of life that I am proud of when I compare it to other societies on Earth.

The results of stem cell research would raise our quality of life further, so I think it's an important avenue to fund.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #3292143 - 10/29/04 02:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

They only problem with this is that when you assume private enterprise and the free market won't always go for the most benificial route for our population.  Thats why there is 20 different pills that get your dick hard because its reletively profitable.  A combination of private enterprise and government grants in relation to R & D should be implimented
Quote:


Free healthcare for the poor is also what I would classify as a social directive. Despite the fact it may not benefit a financially sound citizen directly, it is like a safety net; there when you need it (like public education).



:thumbup:  It can benefit a well off citizen because everybody need health care at some point.  Its like infrastructure, everybody uses it.  Somebody can choose government health care and put more money in their pocket, yes taxes take a hit but its not as much as the personal costs of health care or the costs of health care to private companies to an individual.  The drug indistry is out of control in this country because its completely privatized...thats why drugs are so much cheaper in Canada


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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