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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
I know this won't work....
    #3285477 - 10/27/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Since the spring, I've been listening to people go back and forth here over social economic issues (wellfare, healthcare, education, blah blah). When it comes to stuff like this, people apparently like to describe themselves as liberals at heart, but logic forces them to be conservative. For whatever reason, I've found that I'm the opposite. At heart, I have no issue with the something as extreme as the libertarian standpoint. But in my mind, I want to live in the most functional society possible. And I don't think extreme conservatism on social issues can make it happen (long list of reasons. let's discuss it in another thread, please).

Wellfare's not an issue for me. I think it should be eliminated.

But for healthcare and education, why not some sort of comprimise? I don't think any democratic government in world history has ever been able to sustain a state of idealism. Comprimise must happen in a country of 280 million some odd people.

So here's something I thought of today:

For both education and healthcare, establish two groups. Every individual taxpayer and taxpaying family in the US could voluntarily join either group on either issue. I'll use education for the sake of example. Those in Group A would have the option, if they wish, to enroll themselves or their children in government run public education (similar to what we have now, at least from K-12). Group A would also pay the bulk of the taxes for public education. Group B would not have the option to enroll in public education, but would only pay a small percentage of the taxes going toward public education. Anyone could switch back and forth between groups, year to year. I'm not great with economics, so I don't know what the ratios would have to be. Four to one maybe? Maybe more like three to one...?

The hope is that you could balance it in the following way: People in Group B (presumably those that wish to enroll in private schools or those that have no one to enroll) would be saving up to 3% off their taxes. 10% if they opted out of both education and healthcare. People in Group A would be paying higher taxes, but still would be saving more than they would be if they enrolled in private schools.

Now, I'm just estimating all this... which brings me to my next point.

I'm sure this doesn't work. Because I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of it and propose it. In fact, I'm sure there's a proper name for this idea and it's touched upon in at least a few economics books....

So why doesn't it work?

Any insight would be helpful.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285501 - 10/27/04 06:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

public education is a MONOPOLY and needs to broken up.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285515 - 10/27/04 06:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ya know, I just realized this quickly going to become the latest libertarian cheerleading thread. So I'll rephrase.

Why hasn't this become popular?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285564 - 10/27/04 07:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

because for social programs to work, we need people from all sectors of society to contribute to them. if you tell the rich, with the way the current public social programs (public schools, public medicine, social security) are, "hey, you can choose not to pay for these at all, and get your own healthcare, education, and social security" - they all will! the public social programs, especially in the US, leave a lot to be desired, and those with the choice won't use them. however, this doesn't mean that we should just say "well if you can't afford high-quality healthcare, tough shit for you!". instead, i think the fact that not every person in the US (let alone the world!) doesn't have access to good education, quality health-care, and some sort of life insurance/social security is a clear indicator that sometime basic needs to be changed.

by confusing education, healthcare, and social security with commodities to be bought and sold, many governments have ended up with crapped out, half-way socialized, but all-profit seeking ventures.
now, if we could totally reform these systems (for example take 80% of military spending and re-route it to education, health care, and social security) - change the way in which medicine, education, and insurance/social security are viewed as a for-profit commodity - well, then it wouldn't really be "state-controlled" social programs - it would be community controlled social programs. "in exchange for being a doctor in this community and treating all our ailments, we will provide you and your family with a fine standard of living, etc." it wouldn't be "state-controlled" education, it would be community controlled. since the students would all be the children of the adults in the community, who wouldn't want the best education for their own child?


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OfflineWorf
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285566 - 10/27/04 07:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm thinking you'd see much more social stratification in this method. Rich people getting better education. Poor peopel getting worse. Public Education would majorly be supported by lower income families and wouldn't have near as much money as they did now.

Higher income families would just put their children in very nice private schools just for the sake of the tax break. Higher income families already put their children in private schools but still have to pay the taxes, and their own choice to do so.

I do think that people without children should be able to get some sort of tax break for not flooding our schools. Maybe something like people with more than 2 children have to pay X amount more per child per year.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Worf]
    #3285619 - 10/27/04 07:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
if you tell the rich, with the way the current public social programs (public schools, public medicine, social security) are, "hey, you can choose not to pay for these at all




Not what I'm proposing.

Quote:

outputrotation said:
I'm thinking you'd see much more social stratification in this method. Rich people getting better education. Poor peopel getting worse. Public Education would majorly be supported by lower income families and wouldn't have near as much money as they did now.




I can't deny that it's possible it would. The hope is that the ratio could be worked out in a way that would keep public education at the state it's currently at. Not great I know, but decent compared to other countries.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285663 - 10/27/04 07:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
The hope is that the ratio could be worked out in a way that would keep public education at the state it's currently at. Not great I know, but decent compared to other countries.




whoa... gotta call you out there. the public education in the US (especially in low-income, inner city areas) is DISMAL compared to the rest of the developed world. compared to schools i've seen in norway, sweden, and denmark, we are light years behind (but they have renowned social programs). compaed to school systems in the rest of western europe, we are still way behind (mainly because while our schools in upper-middle-class suburbs are nicely funded, due to property tax laws, the schools in inner-city areas are shit!)


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Krishna]
    #3285693 - 10/27/04 07:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You're not calling me on shit.
Scandanavia has great schools. England, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Canada, South Korea, Japan, all stellar education systems.

Go look at the rankings worldwide, man.

I'll say it again: US system is not great, but decent compared to the rest of the world.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285807 - 10/27/04 07:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yeah... i'll agree there - there are enough 3rd world countries with piss-poor educational systems to give us a good ranking.

like I said, wouldn't you want the best education for your child?

I know I would - whether I was rich and could afford it, or poor and couldn't.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285810 - 10/27/04 07:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I read what you wrote.  I think you don't factor in the source of the tax revenue for the current education system.  Local taxes on property pay for the bulk of education.  This is somewhat supplemented by state and federal contributions but, in the end, they don't amount to much.  The state and federal government set standards of minimum performance but mostly they let the local governments figure out how to get there.  And how to pay for it.  This is the dignity of local government.  Decide your own fate.  Should poorer neighborhoods receive extra?  Maybe a little.  Should richer neighborhoods not be allowed to spend all that they wish on their schools?  Of course not.  Education should remain a local issue as long as minimum standards are maintained.

Healthcare?  You avoided it entirely.  It is a good bit harder isn't it. :smile:  My biggest beef with the health care system in NY is that I have to buy into an HMO when all I really want is disaster insurance.  I can't buy it.  I have to pay for every asshole who brings her kid to a doctor when it gets a cold.  The HMO system is rife with abuse by people who think "I'm paying for this so every nipple twist must be treated by a doctor" and  then they sue if the doctor misses a lesion because he is overwhelmed by nonsense complaints which he has to give total attention to because of the threat of said lawsuit. This is why there are very few domestic vaccine manufacturers.  Fun, aint it.  BY the way, Edwards made his millions suing ob/gyns because low fetal blood pressure caused Cerebral Palsy.  Problem is there was no scientific evidence that one caused the other.  At all.  In fact, it has since been shown that that is irrelevant to the incidence of CP.  Do you think the fuck gave a nickel that he stole back?  Some lawyers are worse than others.  They don't call them ambulance chasers out of respect.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3285886 - 10/27/04 07:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Brilliant points all the way around, zappa.

I was aware of the school funding stuff. I should have stated that I'm in favor of severely cutting federal involvement in education.
But I do think there needs to be state involvement at some level (I personally want it to be as minimal as possible, but I'm not everyone). Under what I'm proposing local taxes would still cover the bulk. My idea would simply be whatever's left over for the state to handle.


Yes, healthcare is much more complicated. :crazy:
I personally want healthcare to be as private as possible, but the lower income rungs should still have some sort of safety net, if they want it. My thoughts were that, under this plan, more of the middle class would be encouraged to get private education and get off public health care.
Are there not private catastrophic plans in New York?


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Gijith]
    #3285935 - 10/27/04 08:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

NO


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3286150 - 10/27/04 08:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i write a check for thousands of dollars a year to the state for a sorry day care system. it may not seem like much to some people but it is to me. all i ask is a choice.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3286325 - 10/27/04 09:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


I read what you wrote. I think you don't factor in the source of the tax revenue for the current education system. Local taxes on property pay for the bulk of education. This is somewhat supplemented by state and federal contributions but, in the end, they don't amount to much. The state and federal government set standards of minimum performance but mostly they let the local governments figure out how to get there. And how to pay for it. This is the dignity of local government. Decide your own fate. Should poorer neighborhoods receive extra? Maybe a little. Should richer neighborhoods not be allowed to spend all that they wish on their schools? Of course not. Education should remain a local issue as long as minimum standards are maintained.




It should be done at the state level. Education funding shouldn't be localized because that is how social stratification begins. If you grow up poor and go to these poorly funded schools your going to be at a disadvantage and recycle your class status. The funding should come from the top down (state) and be leveled across the board. Localized funding of education is the dream of the suburban middle class and the bane of poor communities. Minimum standards do exist now and are met but they are set so low because in order to get poorly funded school districts to meet them they have to be. The local issue of school souldn't involve funding but should involve administration and how they spend that money. What you suggesting is what already exists pretty much and doesn't work for society as a whole.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #3286386 - 10/27/04 09:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The further any government activity gets from it's principal source of funding the more unaccountable it becomes. Rich people should be allowed to pay more for their schools. The thing you fail to understand is that they bought houses in those areas BECAUSE the schools were better. They don't just happen to live there. They moved there because of the schools. They are already paying for a private school education with their property taxes. They also already pay a disproportionate share of income taxes that fund everybody else. The top 5% pays more than 50% of the taxes now. How much more do you want?


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3286529 - 10/27/04 10:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The further any government activity gets from it's principal source of funding the more unaccountable it becomes.




I couldn't agree more. I totally understand why people buy houses in the burbs because the schools are better among other things like a false sense of security etc. I am just for equal funding of public schools. How this funding is spent should be done locally. If people were incouraged to be more involved with how their city's schools spent their money it would be better for everybody involved (parents, students, teachers). Rich people can pay more for their schools if they want but it shouldn't be decided on property taxes and where they live it should be done with tax breaks for those opting to go to private schools. Thats what private schools are for. Also your property taxes would drop alot which can go towrds privates schools as well. Schools receiving public funding shouldn't aid the stratification of society which is exactly what property tax funding does. It also leads to other messes like ethnic quotas in colleges and like which need to be done away with.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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OfflineWorf
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Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3287195 - 10/27/04 11:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The top %5 may pay %50 but they have %80 of the total money.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: I know this won't work.... [Re: Worf]
    #3287394 - 10/28/04 12:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So, envy motivates you to stick them for more? OR, are you one of those who assumes that material success can only be gained via immoral means so anyone who makes more than the average is suspect and should be punished for their achievements?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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