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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone?
    #3284788 - 10/27/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

link

Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone?

by Harry Browne

August 8, 2003

Republican sycophants have been engaging in revisionist history to rewrite the assertions made by the Bush administration before the war.

Absolute proof that Hussein had dangerous weapons has morphed into "we know Hussein had a weapons program" (for which any idle wish to have a bomb qualifies). Irrefutable knowledge that Hussein and Al-Qaeda were Saturday night drinking buddies has been replaced with ? well, just about anything will do.

But the coup de grace the Republicans fall back on, the #1 intimidation technique to be used on anyone who questions the good intentions of George W. Bush, the absolute-sure-fire-can?t-miss-you?re-toast-Buddy argument to put everything back in "perspective" is this:

Quote:

You mean you don?t think the world is a better place now that Hussein is no longer in power???




With that thrust, the most dedicated peacenik is guaranteed to melt and stammer, "Well, er, of course no one wants Hussein back but, er . . ."

But rather than duck the question, perhaps we should meet it head on:

Is the world a better place now that Hussein is gone?

Actually, I don?t know. Yes, George Bush claims it is. But he?s the guy who said in 2000 that he was compassionate, believed in limited government, and opposed nation-building. So, frankly, his word doesn?t hold much weight with me these days.

Is Iraq a better place now that it no longer has much electricity, clean water, or food?

Is Iraq a better place now that tens of thousands of its citizens are dead or wounded from U.S. attacks?

Is Iraq a better place after 12 years of U.S.-enforced sanctions that generated starvation and disease?

Is America a better place now that over 100,000 of the nation?s finest are in 110-degree heat ? being picked off by attackers, one by one?

UnRevisionist History

Perhaps we should look at the past results of American attempts to create "better places."

Was Indonesia a better place after the U.S. helped bring Suharto to power ? so that he could kill over 250,000 Indonesians and then another 200,000 in East Timor?

Did the Middle East become a better place by the U.S. providing Saddam Hussein with weapons and intelligence during his war with Iran?

Is Afghanistan a better place nearly two years after the Afghan war ? with electricity still not reestablished in many parts of the country, the war lords battling each other, and civil war providing an invitation for the Taliban to come back?

Is Kosovo a better place after the U.S. drove the Serbs out and left the province to the Albanians to "ethnically cleanse" the province?

Is the world a better place with one man in Washington having the power to decide who will live and who will die anywhere in the world?

What do you think?

Obviously, it will be several years before anyone can know with certainty whether the world is a better place for what the U.S. has done in Iraq. And anyone who claims to know now is just whistling in the dark.

Rulers

In the history of the world, there have been a few thousand rulers who had the kind of power George Bush has today ? the ability to jail people without trial or accountability, the license to spy on every citizen, the power to conquer other countries.

Quick quiz: Name a ruler who had this much power but didn?t become an absolute tyrant?

(Hint: There were very, very few.)

Perhaps the real question should be:

Quote:

Is the world a better place with George Bush having so much power?




And that question I can answer with certainty: no. He has caused Americans to become afraid of the rest of the world, and the rest of the world to become afraid of America.

Next Year

And that leads us to the liberty-lover?s dilemma.

Will the world be a better place if George Bush is voted out of office next year?

That?s not so easy to answer.

It will be tempting for us to want anyone but Bush to be in the White House. And that encourages voting for whoever the Democratic candidate is ? Al Gore, Howard Dean, Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, whoever.

The Democratic candidate may even pledge never to do what George Bush just did ? take the country into an undeclared and unprovoked war. The candidate may promise faithfully that he?ll never meddle in the affairs of foreign countries.

But don?t forget that George Bush as much as promised the same things when he was running for President.

The problem isn?t the abuse of power. As Michael Cloud has pointed out, the problem is the power to abuse. Whoever gets the power is almost certain to abuse it.

A lot of people voted for George Bush because they couldn?t stand Al Gore, and now regret that they did.

Most likely, the same thing will happen again next year ? when many people will vote reluctantly for the Democrat and later regret it when he, too, becomes enamored with his role as ruler of the world ? while simultaneously pushing for universal health care, increased federal control of schools, and the like.

The Choices

To me, there are only two valid choices next year ? and neither of them spells Republican or Democrat.

Choice #1: Vote Libertarian. It?s the only vote you can cast that will never be misinterpreted as an endorsement of things you wouldn?t want in a million years.

Choice #2: Don?t vote at all. This is a perfectly legitimate option. It?s a way of saying you don?t like what either major party is doing. Abstaining won?t of itself make the world a better place, but neither would voting for a Democrat or a Republican.

And either voting Libertarian or not voting at all provides the fringe benefit of being able to live with yourself ever after.

The most important choice you can make is to take care of yourself and your family. That?s an area where you actually do have some control ? a place where you can make a real difference.

Better Place?

Is the world a better place with Hussein gone?

I don?t know. But I do know that I?m making my world a better place by earning a living trying to improve the lives of the people with whom I associate.

I wish George Bush and the Republican intimidators could say the same.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 1,059
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3284954 - 10/27/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i think it's worse actually. america has opened iraq to globalization and even more people are dieing since the gulf war than when saddam was in charge.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3285054 - 10/27/04 05:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Hardly. Try telling that to the people of Madrid, Spain.

This war is a huge insult to Arabs and Muslims and has only created more militants.


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Anonymous

Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3285263 - 10/27/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone?

he's not gone quite yet.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: ]
    #3285321 - 10/27/04 06:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yea, he's still taking dumps in a toilet some poor Iraqi made.  :tongue2:


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3285362 - 10/27/04 06:16 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Was he a cruel violent dictator... yes.
Did he commit genocide... yes.

Did he bring stability and security to Iraq... yes.

Is Iraq worse now than it was under him. Most certainly.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3285739 - 10/27/04 07:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

According Human Rights watch, and mass graves unearthed so far Saddam Hussein killed somewhere between 250,000 and 300,000 of his own people between the Gulf Wars. That averages around 25-35,000 people killed each year. Although the insurgents are trying hard to beat that number, so far to my knowledge since the invasion in 2003 about 15,000 Iraqis have been killed by the US, insurgency, crime and poverty.
If you divide that number by two years you have about 7,000 dead each year, which is about 4 to 5 times less than under Saddam Hussein. And,at least with Saddam gone there is a strong possibility of violence dying down at some point, rather than stay consistent over 20 years as with Hussein.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3285853 - 10/27/04 07:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Saddam killed 300,000? Source?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3286074 - 10/27/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Investigators Say Iraqi Mass Graves Hold 300,000
Reuters ^ | 11-8-03 | Andrew Hammond

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi and U.S. rights investigators said on Saturday they suspected Iraq had up to 260 mass graves containing the bodies of at least 300,000 people murdered by the former regime of Saddam Hussein.

They told a conference that the task of identifying bodies and preparing evidence for tribunals could take years and millions of dollars, but the long process would be worth it to heal the wounds of three decades of brutal Baath Party rule.

"We have reports of 260 mass graves and we have confirmed approximately 40 of them," said Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the Coalition Provisional Authority's (CPA) mass grave action plan'.

"We believe, based on what Iraqis have reported to us, that there are 300,000 dead and that's the lower end of the estimates.

"In Bosnia it's now eight or nine years since similar atrocities and only 8,000 bodies out of 30,000 have been uncovered. Here in Iraq it's 300,000," said Hodgkinson, a human rights lawyer brought in by the CPA after U.S.-led forces toppled Saddam in April. More sites could still be found.

The three-day conference aims to prepare Iraqi rights workers and officials of the Iraqi human rights ministry for the process of disinterring graves and convincing families that they should wait rather than rush to dig up bodies themselves.

Hodgkinson said only 11 of the 260 sites had been disturbed since the graves were first discovered in May, when distraught families frantically dug around for the remains of loved ones.

Iraqi officials, who will gradually take over control of the investigations, also called for patience.

"Iraq doesn't have the capability at present to do the work of investigation. The main task for the moment is how to protect the sites which have been opened," Human Rights Minister Abdel-Basset Turki told the meeting.

KURDS VICTIMISED

The U.S. military has footed the bill for satellite imaging to identify sites, but Turki said more money would be needed.

Iraq's Governing Council asked an international donor conference in Madrid last month for $100 million to be spent on equipment and manpower over the next five years, but Turki said little has been forthcoming yet.

A team of forensic experts will arrive in Iraq in January to begin work on up to 20 sites around the country where evidence will be collected for future trials of regime figures. Work to identify bodies has begun at the other 200-odd sites.

Investigators have identified six major crime periods: 1983 attacks on Kurds, a 1988 campaign against Kurds, chemical weapons attacks on Kurds 1986-88, the 1991 crushing of a southern Shi'ite revolt, 1991 crushing of Kurdish insurrection, and crimes against all sectors of the population during the entire period of Baath rule.

Rafid al-Husseiny, a doctor who has led disinterring work at the Mahaweel site near Hilla south of Baghdad, is leading efforts to train Iraqis in the gravedigging process.

"Since May we have investigated a mass grave there of 3,115 people. We identified 2,115 bodies, which were reburied by their families," he said, stressing reconciliation among Iraqis.

"Iraqi citizens must look with both eyes, one looking to the future and one looking toward the past."


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3286081 - 10/27/04 08:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Link?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3288247 - 10/28/04 08:09 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)



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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3288330 - 10/28/04 09:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If anyone takes that as conclusive evidence then I think you may be suffering from a sever case of selectivelybelievingwhatyouwantitis.


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibletrick

Registered: 10/22/04
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3288360 - 10/28/04 09:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

have you heard about the violations of the geneva convention the United States has gone through? We don't count their dead, Baghdad's city water duct has no sanitary equipment (the US confiscated it for 'inspection') to sift through the water that has been contaminated since 1990's in the Gulf War by depleted uranium. Stillborn fetuses, children born with lifeless limbs, and children born with cancer.....byproducts of our war for Iraq. More than 300,000 children face death because of malnutrition since the Gulf War. Clinics and hospitals don't get the supplies they need for children with cancer since we've waged war once again on Iraq.
As i stated earlier, the US is opening Iraq to "global economy" which is basically globalization and capitalism. The United States has already started corporatizing Iraqi Cities and are exporting their resources.

" It was only after I had been in Baghdad for a month that I found what I was looking for. I had traveled to Iraq a year after the war began, at the height of what should have been a construction boom, but after weeks of searching I had not seen a single piece of heavy machinery apart from tanks and humvees. Then I saw it: a construction crane. It was big and yellow and impressive, and when I caught a glimpse of it around a corner in a busy shopping district I thought that I was finally about to witness some of the reconstruction I had heard so much about. But as I got closer I noticed that the crane was not actually rebuilding anything?not one of the bombed-out government buildings that still lay in rubble all over the city, nor one of the many power lines that remained in twisted heaps even as the heat of summer was starting to bear down. No, the crane was hoisting a giant billboard to the top of a three-story building. SUNBULAH: HONEY 100% NATURAL, made in Saudi Arabia.

Seeing the sign, I couldn?t help but think about something Senator John McCain had said back in October. Iraq, he said, is ?a huge pot of honey that?s attracting a lot of flies.? The flies McCain was referring to were the Halliburtons and Bechtels, as well as the venture capitalists who flocked to Iraq in the path cleared by Bradley Fighting Vehicles and laser-guided bombs. The honey that drew them was not just no-bid contracts and Iraq?s famed oil wealth but the myriad investment opportunities offered by a country that had just been cracked wide open after decades of being sealed off, first by the nationalist economic policies of Saddam Hussein, then by asphyxiating United Nations sanctions.

Looking at the honey billboard, I was also reminded of the most common explanation for what has gone wrong in Iraq, a complaint echoed by everyone from John Kerry to Pat Buchanan: Iraq is mired in blood and deprivation because George W. Bush didn?t have ?a postwar plan.? The only problem with this theory is that it isn?t true. The Bush Administration did have a plan for what it would do after the war; put simply, it was to lay out as much honey as possible, then sit back and wait for the flies..."

- Naomi Klien; http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

Of course Saddam was an evil dictator, but that is the same for most of our leaders. I mean, don't you remember the past 200 years of America and even before that, the EuroAmericans. Don't you remember the genocide of the Native Americans? The enslavement of the Africans? Putting chinese immigrants to work in life threatening (which lives were taken) in the process of building bridges across the U.S.? America is owned by corporations. Ah...a little excerpt from a book i love (can't believe ima take the time to transcribe this):

'By now, most of us are aware that similiar relationships existed between facist Germany and U.S. businesspeople. Many heads of corporations-in the United States, Germany, and elsewhere-were enamored of Hitler because he was good for business. 'We stand for the maintenance of private property,' he reassured them. 'We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order.' William Randolph Gearst struck a deal with Hitler to guarantee favorable coverage of the fascists in Hearst-run newspapers. Because Alcoa (Aluminum Company of America) had a cartel agreement with notorious German manufacturer I.G. Farben, Alcoa denied the United States aluminum it needed to prosecute World War II, causing secretary of Interior Harold Ickes to state, 'If America loses this war, it can thank the Aluminum Corporation of America.' DuPont's interests in the Nazis were not merely fiscal. Irenee du Pont, the most powerful member of the family, was, to use the words of biographer and history Charles Higham, 'obsessed' with the principles of Hitler: 'He keenly followed the career of the future Fuhrer in the 1920's, and on September 7, 1926, in a speech to the American Chemical Society, he advocated a race of supermen, to be achieved by injecting special drugs into them in boyhood to make their characters to roder.' Irenee was, it seems, a bit ahead of his time. On The home front, DuPont used General Motors money (GM was controlled by DuPont) to finance something called the Black Legion, sort of a KKK with black instead of white, ribes, that did much the same thing as the KKK: firebomb union halls and kill union organizers and African Americans. General Motors supplied trucks for hitler's war machine (as did Ford), and Standard Oil (now Exxon) supplied gas and rubber, often at terms better than those supplied to the United States. International Telephone and Telegraph, according to Higham, built 'switchboards, telephones, alarm gongs, buoys, air raid warning devices, radar equipment, and thirty thousand fuses per month for artillery shells used to kill British and American troops....Without this supply of crucial materials, it would have been impossible for the German air force to kill American and British troops, for the German army to fight the allies in Africa, Italy, France, and Germany, for England to have been bombed, or for Allied ships to have been attacked at sea.' ITT owned nearly a third of the Focke-Wulf company, maker of the devastating FW190 fighter airplane. After the war, ITT sued and recieved compensation from the American public for wartime damage done to Focke-Wulf plants. Gm and Ford recieved similiar reparations."

- Derrick Jensen; The Culture of Make Believe.

You may ask what purpose it was that i quoted this certain part of book, which i don't really know, because there's plenty of more companies that have and still continue to run America. History repeats itself repeating itself, the United States and possibly it's blindfolded allies will take global control and eventually everyone will be brainwashed like the average American. This isn't a conspiracy theory either. Afghanistan and Iraq are two vital keypoints in the middle-east, as well as filled with oil. This is a war on Iraq, humanity, and love - like all of our wars have been fought. No matter who is elected president of the US or Iraq, the bullshit will rage on. The world is not a better place without Saddam Hussein gone and it wasn't better when he was here.


Edited by trick (10/28/04 10:00 AM)


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: trick]
    #3288427 - 10/28/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks alot SS7 and Trick for posting that. Amazingly good stuff you guys are pointing out. There is so much brain power here in the shroomery that sometimes i wonder if the shroomery shouldn't be a political force :smile:

Gawd, I feel all i can do is just wait for something to happen...things can't keep going on like that


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3288605 - 10/28/04 12:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

sigh. It is really frustrating when you cite longstanding and well known evidence and nobody accepts it because they would rather throw out some red herrings or cite the creatively liscenced opinions of angry leftist journalists. The number of 300,000 people killed under Saddam Hussein has been around for a long time and is supposed to be the most reliable, corroberated and consistant estimate. I believe the figure came from Human Rights watch before the war, but finding old info on their site is very hard, and plus you have to do the math yourself.
If nobody has seen that before they seriously have had their head under a rock.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3288640 - 10/28/04 12:16 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone?

The patient is better off with the bullet gone, shame we used an blunt axe to remove it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3288858 - 10/28/04 01:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

According Human Rights watch, and mass graves unearthed so far Saddam Hussein killed somewhere between 250,000 and 300,000 of his own people between the Gulf Wars.

I'm sorry but that's complete and utter fucking bollocks. Read your own article. It says the vast majority of the alleged killings took place in the 80's when Saddam had the full backing and support of Reagan and Bush and the period of the rebellion in 1991.

So far just 5000 people have been found in mass graves.

That averages around 25-35,000 people killed each year.

This shows how easy to start with bullshit and compound it into even bigger bullshit.

And,at least with Saddam gone there is a strong possibility of violence dying down at some point, rather than stay consistent over 20 years as with Hussein.

It didn't. If you think Saddam was killing anything like 20,000 Iraqis a year every year since 1991 you are talking out the back of your ass.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: trick]
    #3289116 - 10/28/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If anyone takes that as conclusive evidence then I think you may be suffering from a sever case of selectivelybelievingwhatyouwantitis. 




Agreed.

Quote:

We don't count their dead, Baghdad's city water duct has no sanitary equipment (the US confiscated it for 'inspection')to sift through the water that has been contaminated since 1990's in the Gulf War by depleted uranium.




Again I ask you to provide evidence for your assertion. I have been unable to find any studies of Baghdad City's water supply let alone tests carried out to measure levels of depleted uranium contamination.

Quote:

Stillborn fetuses, children born with lifeless limbs, and children born with cancer.....byproducts of our war for Iraq.




First of I must ask by 'our' are you referring to the US/UK? If so, I feel I should point out that any 'stillborn fetuses' or cases of 'children born with cancer' caused by the use of depleted uranium would almost certainly be as a result of the munitions used during the first Gulf War. A war that was launched with the full backing of the United Nations Security Council, judging by the content of your post it would seem you have got a bit caught up in blaming  America.


As for DU:

"The UNEP study in Serbia and Montenegro confirms that contamination at the targeted sites is widespread. We did not find levels of radioactivity that could pose a direct threat to the environment or to human health. Nevertheless, we strongly recommend taking precautionary measures similar to those outlined in our Kosovo report last year"


BTW, I think the use of depleted uranium in ammunition should be banned until further tests have been carried out. Though I think the burning  of oil fields is having a  greater detrimental effect on the Iraqi's health.


Quote:

More than 300,000 children face death because of malnutrition since the Gulf War.




By 'face death' do you mean they are suffering from chronic malnutrition? If so could you provide a source for this figure.


Quote:

Clinics and hospitals don't get the supplies they need for children with cancer since we've waged war once again on Iraq. 




Unfortunate for all Iraqi's not just Iraqi children.


Quote:

No matter who is elected president of the US or Iraq, the bullshit will rage on. The world is not a better place without Saddam Hussein gone and it wasn't better when he was here. 




:thumbup:


UNEP Recommends Studies of Depleted Uranium in Iraq


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3289177 - 10/28/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It says the vast majority of the alleged killings took place in the 80's when Saddam had the full backing and support of Reagan and Bush and the period of the rebellion in 1991.




Round and round we go Alex, you know what I am going to say...

Could you be a little more specific as to what you call 'full backing' is and how this somehow diminishes the mass murder of thousands?


Quote:

It didn't. If you think Saddam was killing anything like 20,000 Iraqis a year every year since 1991 you are talking out the back of your ass.




So you only hold Saddam accountable for murders post-1991, fortuntely Alex you cannot pardon Saddam for the crimes he commited before the Gulf War.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is the World a Better Place with Hussein Gone? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3289219 - 10/28/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Round and round we go Alex, you know what I am going to say...

I've no idea what you're going to say stoned. I've a strong suspicion that it's going to be horseshit but apart from that..

Could you be a little more specific as to what you call 'full backing' is

Billion dollar loans, arms export guarantees, providing him with intelligence to win the war with Iran etc etc.

how this somehow diminishes the mass murder of thousands?

Who said it diminishes anything?

So you only hold Saddam accountable for murders post-1991,

Get a grip stoned. The argument that "We invaded to stop him gassing and shooting Iraqis" would have been valid during the 1980's and during the 91 rebellion. It wasn't valid in 2003.

fortuntely Alex you cannot pardon Saddam for the crimes he commited throught his reign.

I've no desire to. What put that fantasy in your head? Remember, I wasn't the one supporting him at the height of his killing spree. That was Reagan and Bush. Blame them.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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