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Invisibleretread
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Political Conversions
    #3276470 - 10/25/04 08:20 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I was reading some backposts here and it seems that ss7 and mushmaster, two libertarian types, seem to have been at some point in the past socialists. I was wondering if the majority of "switches" like this occur from left to right/center, or right/center to left?


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: retread]
    #3276493 - 10/25/04 08:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

My views on the political compass and in general have moved to the economic far left from the left.

However I have moved towards a more libertarian view on social issues.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: retread]
    #3276500 - 10/25/04 08:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i have a few friends who were staunch republicans..they have all converted to kerry voters...mostly because they are disgusted with the religous right controlling their parties...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: retread]
    #3276577 - 10/25/04 08:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think you'll find that more often it goes from left to right than vice-versa. In a way, I think this may actually have a lot to do with the pluralistic nature of liberalism. Those brought up in liberal homes are generally taught to tolerate the opinions of others, and be open-minded, and it's this same open-mindedness which causes one to be more susceptible to conversion. I'm not saying all conservatives are necessarily close-minded, but I find that particularly in socially conservative families, people are brought up with the idea of "We're right, they're wrong, don't listen to their pinko commie bullshit."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276586 - 10/25/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I've been converted into every concievable political persuasion at least once :smile:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3276590 - 10/25/04 08:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I've been converted into every concievable political persuasion at least once :smile:



Interesting.  I've done the same thing with religion.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276600 - 10/25/04 08:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

just like religious purism, all political purism is bullshit. The real answers lie somewhere in between the positions.


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: retread]
    #3276769 - 10/25/04 09:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Whoa, I've been searching through mushmaster's posts to find the point where he was still a socialist, and I'm finding a lot of old debates I had with him(and pinky and Evolving) back in my socialist days. It's so wierd how I always get the same arguments from people in debates that I was using myself back then.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276805 - 10/25/04 09:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There is a classic observation that goes somewhat like this. "If you're not a liberal when you're young you have not heart. If you're not a conservative when you grow up tou have no brain." I think this conversion occurs when you realize that it is your pocket that the government takes it's money from. The social crap probably doesn't change much.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276811 - 10/25/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Hehe...Check out this little gem of a thread by the poopsmith himself: clicky

"This War is 100% About Oil" :lol:

Can't believe it's the same guy.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276815 - 10/25/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think you'll find that more often it goes from left to right than vice-versa. In a way, I think this may actually have a lot to do with the pluralistic nature of liberalism. Those brought up in liberal homes are generally taught to tolerate the opinions of others, and be open-minded, and it's this same open-mindedness which causes one to be more susceptible to conversion. I'm not saying all conservatives are necessarily close-minded, but I find that particularly in socially conservative families, people are brought up with the idea of "We're right, they're wrong, don't listen to their pinko commie bullshit."

My father would lecture me on politics at a very young age, and had me listening to rush limbaugh at 9 years old. I was a staunch republican up until I started smoking pot, and becoming more interested in political philosophy, so when I was 18, I voted for Badnarik.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Anonymous

Re: Political Conversions [Re: silversoul7]
    #3276829 - 10/25/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

if i shall ever be accused of stubborness i shall direct the accuser towards the archives.  :cool:

being wrong is a hell of a lot more interesting than being right.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: looner2]
    #3276832 - 10/25/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ya, I could see a conservative becoming libertarian more easily than a liberal. I had a friend in High School whose parents were hardcore Republicans. But he started smoking lots of weed, which changed his politics somewhat. Then he realized he was gay and came out of the closet, at which point I'm sure he figured out that the whole Republican thing wasn't going to work out for him, so he became a libertarian.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: looner2]
    #3276836 - 10/25/04 10:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

mushmaster quote
Quote:

Listen Al, I love the Iraqi people. It really is too bad that their dictator is a whacko and that the U.S. has decided to violently oust him to get at his oil, and that alot of them will be victimized in the process. I oppose this war. I just get tired of hearing people like you say, "it's just about oil !" as if they've had some kind of great insight and know something others don't. Of course it's about oil. It's the rich fucking the poor the same way they always have. I never said that people being killed didn't bother me. Step down




heh


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3277336 - 10/25/04 11:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I would agree that more conversions go left to right. It is all part of growning up. I think that quote is from Sir Winston. I have generally become more conservative as my life goes on.

I used to be more critical of the distribution of wealth in this country. I guess I was more liberal when I was young. I have always been fairly liberal on social issues, but who here isn't?

I have never been a fan of big government.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3277412 - 10/26/04 12:21 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

well, while ideologically i am opposed to "big government" (or any centralised form of government, for that matter), pratically, after living in Scandanavia for the past 2 years, I've realized how a system of Social Democracy/Social Welfare can greatly benefit the whole of the population. Sure, there are problems (heroin addiction, bums living on the dole, massive influx of immigration) - but in comparison to bleak figures like 40 million people without any basic health care - i personally would rather pay 75% tax and know that my children will get good, free education.

although, corporate interest is so damn deep in the pockets of nearly every politician, that i don't know if i'd trust them with my 75% tax... it's unfortunately a lose-lose situation - we obviously aren't paying enough tax in the US to support nation-wide health care, education (up to the university or trade school level - in many parts of the world, university is free, not 30,000$ a year!!!), and yet such a large proportion of our tax goes to military/drug war/police/"foreign aid" (to develop 3rd world countries up to the point that MNCs can operate there... eg developing large dams in southern india, claiming that "hey look it'll create electricity and development!!!", when 80% of that electricity is used by foreign owned MNCs, and 90% of that development is directly related to those foreign MNCs...

i guess, to get back to the topic - i've moved more and more "left" in the past years of my life. or, to be more specific, i've begun to see the greater importance of politics on the local level, and how the principles of democratic socialism can be applied through the people, without the machinery of the state (or at least i hope so!) i hold certain spiritual beliefs about the inherent one-ness of all of existence, and thus the inherent equality in "value" of all of existence - and so, as a direct result of these beliefs - i find my political thought to be motivated by the desire to create a world where this one-ness is more manifest. no, i can't see myself getting more "conservative" in my thoughts - the only way it could happen would be for me to become cynical and say, "fuck 'em all, i just care about me" ... and that's just not who i am!


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: Krishna]
    #3277488 - 10/26/04 12:43 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
i guess, to get back to the topic - i've moved more and more "left" in the past years of my life. or, to be more specific, i've begun to see the greater importance of politics on the local level, and how the principles of democratic socialism can be applied through the people, without the machinery of the state (or at least i hope so!) i hold certain spiritual beliefs about the inherent one-ness of all of existence, and thus the inherent equality in "value" of all of existence - and so, as a direct result of these beliefs - i find my political thought to be motivated by the desire to create a world where this one-ness is more manifest. no, i can't see myself getting more "conservative" in my thoughts - the only way it could happen would be for me to become cynical and say, "fuck 'em all, i just care about me" ... and that's just not who i am!




:thumbup: :thumbup:

Nice Krishna!


Yeah, but most conversions are defintely from left to right. I'm not articulate enough right now to be able to say why in a nice way and I don't want to insult anyone.







--------------------
--------------------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: Krishna]
    #3277605 - 10/26/04 01:14 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
well, while ideologically i am opposed to "big government" (or any centralised form of government, for that matter), pratically, after living in Scandanavia for the past 2 years, I've realized how a system of Social Democracy/Social Welfare can greatly benefit the whole of the population.



It benefits people who would rather be told what to do rather than make their own free decisions.

Quote:

Sure, there are problems (heroin addiction, bums living on the dole, massive influx of immigration) - but in comparison to bleak figures like 40 million people without any basic health care - i personally would rather pay 75% tax and know that my children will get good, free education.



Fine. Pay 75% tax. Just don't make me pay it too.

Quote:

although, corporate interest is so damn deep in the pockets of nearly every politician, that i don't know if i'd trust them with my 75% tax...



A wise judgement. The more power you give to government, the more they will abuse it.

Quote:

it's unfortunately a lose-lose situation - we obviously aren't paying enough tax in the US to support nation-wide health care, education (up to the university or trade school level - in many parts of the world, university is free, not 30,000$ a year!!!), and yet such a large proportion of our tax goes to military/drug war/police/"foreign aid" (to develop 3rd world countries up to the point that MNCs can operate there... eg developing large dams in southern india, claiming that "hey look it'll create electricity and development!!!", when 80% of that electricity is used by foreign owned MNCs, and 90% of that development is directly related to those foreign MNCs...



It doesn't have to be lose-lose. Here's a way to make health care affordable again without giving too much power to the government: http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/HealthCare.htm

Quote:

i guess, to get back to the topic - i've moved more and more "left" in the past years of my life. or, to be more specific, i've begun to see the greater importance of politics on the local level, and how the principles of democratic socialism can be applied through the people, without the machinery of the state (or at least i hope so!) i hold certain spiritual beliefs about the inherent one-ness of all of existence, and thus the inherent equality in "value" of all of existence - and so, as a direct result of these beliefs - i find my political thought to be motivated by the desire to create a world where this one-ness is more manifest.



That belief in the one-ness of existence does not inherently lead one to collectivism. I share that spiritual belief, yet I am staunchly libertarian. Why? Because I value freedom.

Quote:

no, i can't see myself getting more "conservative" in my thoughts - the only way it could happen would be for me to become cynical and say, "fuck 'em all, i just care about me" ... and that's just not who i am!



A common misconception of the right. Just because some of us do not believe in forcing others to take care of each other does not mean that we do not exercise compassion voluntarily.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: Krishna]
    #3277649 - 10/26/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)


I've realized how a system of Social Democracy/Social Welfare can
greatly benefit the whole of the population.


I'd rather eat dirt and live in my own filth than to subjugate
myself economically to the state.

I don't like the thought of trading economic freedom for economic
comfort.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Political Conversions [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3277664 - 10/26/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I've realized how a system of Social Democracy/Social Welfare can
greatly benefit the whole of the population.


I'd rather eat dirt and live in my own filth than to subjugate
myself economically to the state.

I don't like the thought of trading economic freedom for economic
comfort.



:thumbup:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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