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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
I admit it, I don't quite know what to do
    #3274466 - 10/25/04 08:36 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Right now i am filling out my absentee ballot and looking over the statements  of the candidates suddenly i am now torn.

i've thought for a long while that i would vote kerry.  my rationale was that although i am much further to the left socially than kerry, i participated in a sort-of run-off voting by supporting kucinich, and then when my fellow left-wingers compromised on kerry, i should follow that compromise.
and yet while i guess i agree with most of what kerry says in his statement, the issues i feel strongly about are:

1) U.S. military non-intervention apart from cases of genocide
2) Ending the war on drugs
3) Reducing dependence on foreign oil through supporting renewable energy sources through tax breaks, subsidies or direct funding

Kerry mentions #3

Badnarik mentions #1 & #2 very strongly, but of course, i dont support the libertarian views on ending welfare systems, especially education, but then again the executive branch doesnt deal with government spending as much as they do those first two points.  and yet, my vote would not be to get someone elected but to send a message which would be a message of all views of the party.

Greens mention #1, #3, and on their website and, buried beneath, they kind of mention #2 though only a slight change it seems--still against traffikers of 'hard drugs'.  but i dont agree with greens on their absolute stance towards not privatizing public servies (i.e. school voucher systems) plus other smaller issues like supporting the arts.  plus it seems they hardly even want my vote, this term they just want bush out of office.

Nader mentions #1,#2 and #3.  so when it comes down to it, he's the closest to my views.  but then i come back to my Kerry-rationale and nader's arrogant attitude.  kucinich mentioned all three issues as well, but ran on a democratic ticket using the more humble and practical rationale.
i guess when it comes down to it though the biggest issue for me is getting one of the worst presidents in history out of office.  perhaps this sends a mandate that i am wholly against bush's foreign policy and good ol' kerry will sway to public sentiment.  so i guess im casting my vote for Kerry.

Ahhh, the disillusionment and frustration of politics :shrug:

What are your thoughts?


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3274834 - 10/25/04 12:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ask yourself - do you want four more years of Bush?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3274843 - 10/25/04 12:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Nader may be arrogant, but can you honestly say Kerry isn't?

BTW, Badnarik said he would tackle #3 by rolling back oil subsidies.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Vvellum]
    #3275375 - 10/25/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
ask yourself - do you want four more years of Bush?




Or look at it this way. Do you want to make a political statement, or do you want to be part of a regime change. :wink:


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3275379 - 10/25/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Dude, you're in Washington. You don't have to worry about the Kerry/Bush thing.

Are your three issues in order of importance?

Nader's an asshole, but if he's the best representation for where you stand, I'd vote for him.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3275514 - 10/25/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Uh, if you're in the state of Washington I have no idea why you're even considering a vote for Kerry. The state is going to be blue regardless; vote your conscience! As I have said before, the DNC does not see your vote as a 'GEORGE BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER, KICK HIM OUT OF OFFICE!' vote, they see it as a proverbial checkmark for John Kerry and everything he represents -- continuation and probable enlargement of the warfare state/empire, continuation of the erosion of liberty, and continuation of the growth of government. I see no reason for you to WASTE YOUR VOTE on the Democratic candidate; I would suggest voting Nader if you want to send a message representative of your views, Cobb if you want to help grow the Green Party, or Badnarik if you want to make me happy. Seriously though, vote for someone you respect and agree with. Please.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3275552 - 10/25/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It's too important to piss away a vote on Nader or Badnarik. The only thing that matters is getting lying mass-murderers out of power.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Xlea321]
    #3275562 - 10/25/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Alex, please read the first lines of my and Ancalagon's posts.

:geordinod:


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Xlea321]
    #3275567 - 10/25/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if everybody pissed away their vote on a thirdparty candidate we would have some major change in this country.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Xlea321]
    #3275570 - 10/25/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
It's too important to piss away a vote on Nader or Badnarik. The only thing that matters is getting lying mass-murderers out of power.



Alex, you don't know what you're talking about. We have a system called the Electoral College in the United States in which the total popular vote does not matter. Certain states, including Washington, Tao's state, are virtual deadlocks for one candidate or the other and as such, a vote for Kerry is superfluous IN ADDITION to being misguided. John Kerry is going to win the electoral votes for the state of Washington regardless of whether Tao votes for him or even if he votes for Bush. It is MUCH wiser to send a message via a third party vote in a definite red or blue state than it is to throw in with the lesser of two evils crowd.

I, of course, would vote my conscience even in a swing-state, but that's not relevant to this discussion.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Gijith]
    #3275598 - 10/25/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Alex, please read the first lines of my and Ancalagon's posts

Thanks but I'd prefer to read Tao's post and respond to that seeing as that's what the thread is about.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Xlea321]
    #3275651 - 10/25/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Alex, please read the first lines of my and Ancalagon's posts

Thanks but I'd prefer to read Tao's post and respond to that seeing as that's what the thread is about.



You don't have to publicly cede the point and admit your fallibility, just realize that your advice makes absolutely zero sense given the electoral system of the United States.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Gijith]
    #3277054 - 10/25/04 10:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for the advice everyone.

i forgot to mention the other problem with nader---i was especially pissed about him running in swing states where he might give bush the victory by doing so, i even wrote an email to his site asking him not to do so. thus it would be quite hypocritical to then vote for him.

and how much of a kerry state is washington really? at electoral-vote.com its listed as 50-45%.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3277122 - 10/25/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
thanks for the advice everyone.

i forgot to mention the other problem with nader---i was especially pissed about him running in swing states where he might give bush the victory by doing so, i even wrote an email to his site asking him not to do so. thus it would be quite hypocritical to then vote for him.

and how much of a kerry state is washington really? at electoral-vote.com its listed as 50-45%.



If Bush has enough support to win Washington, he'll have won the election with ease regardless of your vote. Washington is and will be a blue state for the forseeable future, there's no doubt about that. Even in a swing state the odds of YOUR ONE VOTE being the deciding factor are infinitesmally small; in a state that at worst, leans strongly towards Kerry, a vote for either douchebag is completely worthless electorally and morally. Vote for Cobb if you have a problem with Nader.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3277303 - 10/25/04 11:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I admire you passion for the third party. I think the internet and the information age gives a new chance for the future of third parties.

The problem is that if any third party ever become close to being a factor, one of the major political parties will adopt the policies that have made it become popular.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3277319 - 10/25/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

well, if the democratic party starts adopting the policies of the Greens, then i'll vote Democrat...

until then, I'll vote Green :smile:


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3277321 - 10/25/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
I admire you passion for the third party. I think the internet and the information age gives a new chance for the future of third parties.

The problem is that if any third party ever become close to being a factor, one of the major political parties will adopt the policies that have made it become popular.



You say that as if it's a bad thing.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3277350 - 10/25/04 11:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It isn't a bad thing at all. I shouldn't have phrased it that way. It is a bad thing for the third party, because the main stream will steal their ideas. But it is a good idea for America.

I am anxious to see if Republicans can even get the ball rolling on reforming social security. I could see a major fight within the conservative party after the election. At some point I could see a break between the bible thumping social conservatives and the fiscal conservatives that want to go beyond the rhetoric and actually do something about the absurd size and scope of our government. Conservatives have been keeping this debate on the downlow because of the political pressures of an election year. The real debate within the conservative party starts Novermeber 3rd.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3293917 - 10/29/04 03:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You don't have to publicly cede the point and admit your fallibility, just realize that your advice makes absolutely zero sense given the electoral system of the United States.

If your theory is true why is Bush in New Jersey? A solid democrat state that he has no hope of winning?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineWorf
Lt. Commander

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 15,663
Loc: Final Frontier
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: I admit it, I don't quite know what to do [Re: Tao]
    #3293970 - 10/29/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think it depends much on where you live. I don't know too much about washington but if it's somewhat close, vote kerry. He would be better than Bush when it comes down to it.

If your state always votes one way then go third party.

I'm kind of in the same situation you are in. I agree more with Nader on more issues than anyone else. I'm thinking I'm going to vote kerry anyway, just because I just don't think the Democratic party is big enough to split apart yet.


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