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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon)
    #3271213 - 10/24/04 01:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am creating this thread in response to Alcalagon. It is my belief that capitalism has caused a vast majority of the problems America now faces.
*In all fairness, I said it caused ALL the problems in the other thread. I admit that it is not the cause of everything. That was said in the heat of the moment. But for the fun of it(and possible learning experience), tear my fallacious assertion apart Alcalagon...


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: daimyo]
    #3271235 - 10/24/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
I am creating this thread in response to Alcalagon. It is my belief that capitalism has caused a vast majority of the problems America now faces.
*In all fairness, I said it caused ALL the problems in the other thread. I admit that it is not the cause of everything. That was said in the heat of the moment. But for the fun of it(and possible learning experience), tear my fallacious assertion apart Alcalagon...



*Ancalagon

You're going to need to list some specific societal ills that Capitalism has been the direct result of in order for this discussion to be at all productive. To start things off though, you should know that legitimate Laissez-Faire Capitalism has never existed in the United States of America or elsewhere, though we have certainly been closer at times(for instance, the Gilded Age) than we are now(the age of state-corporatism/fascism/state-socialism/mercantalism/etc).


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: daimyo]
    #3271260 - 10/24/04 02:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

how can an etheric ideal cause anything? I thought causation was relegated to the material.

capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3271269 - 10/24/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.




Well said.  :thumbup:


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: daimyo]
    #3271286 - 10/24/04 02:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I take a class called "Sociology of the Third World," and people in that class like to use the term "capitalism" as a catch-all term for everything that is wrong with the U.S. Thus, I had to take it upon myself to explain the difference between capitalism and corporatism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: silversoul7]
    #3271302 - 10/24/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.





but if capitalism creates capitalists which fuck things up, it could be argued that capitalism was a root cause.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: Tao]
    #3271331 - 10/24/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:


capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.





but if capitalism creates capitalists which fuck things up, it could be argued that capitalism was a root cause.



Same argument goes for Communism, Socialism, Mercantilism, or any other system.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: daimyo]
    #3271332 - 10/24/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

capitalism is not a system as much as a lack of a system. capitalism allows people to peacefully persue their own interests as they are capable without forceful restraint or assistance.

in a capitalist environment, there will be a disparity of wealth, but this disparity is not created by capitalism. it is the natural result of a natural disparity in skills and proficiency. capitalism merely fails to "correct" for this disparity.

capitalism creates no evils. everyone benefits from free exchange. some people would benefit (at the cost to others) more from a collectivist system, but they still benefit from free exchange.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: silversoul7]
    #3271339 - 10/24/04 02:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:


capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.





but if capitalism creates capitalists which fuck things up, it could be argued that capitalism was a root cause.



Same argument goes for Communism, Socialism, Mercantilism, or any other system.




and yet you are unwilling to blame capitalism for the same things you blame socialism and communism.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3271363 - 10/24/04 02:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:


capitalism doesnt fuck anything up, but capitalists certainly can, if they are unscrupulous.





but if capitalism creates capitalists which fuck things up, it could be argued that capitalism was a root cause.



Same argument goes for Communism, Socialism, Mercantilism, or any other system.




and yet you are unwilling to blame capitalism for the same things you blame socialism and communism.



I blame socialism and communism not so much for the results of those systems as much as the very theory behind it. Socialism and communism inherently involve government use of force in the economy. As mushmaster pointed out, capitalism is more like the absense of a system, so there is no force inherent in it. The fact that free market policies generally lead to more prosperity than centralized economies is just an added bonus.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Posts: 8,451
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Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: silversoul7]
    #3271370 - 10/24/04 02:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

force is intrinsic to human nature

the abscence of force in capitalism creates a vaccuum

the vaccuum will be filled by the actions of crooked individuals within the system.

if the system does not accomodate this, then it is to blame, no matter how morally correct its founding principles are.

you can be morally right all the way to your grave. I would rather avoid mine altogether.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3271375 - 10/24/04 02:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

that's total nonsense.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Capitalism leads to...(for Alcalagon) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3271388 - 10/24/04 02:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
force is intrinsic to human nature

the abscence of force in capitalism creates a vaccuum



Perhaps I should have been clear: The initiation of force is not inherent in capitalism. The government's job in such a system is to stop the initiation of force.

Quote:

the vaccuum will be filled by the actions of crooked individuals within the system.



Who, under a Constitutionally limited government, would have little power.

Quote:

if the system does not accomodate this, then it is to blame, no matter how morally correct its founding principles are.

you can be morally right all the way to your grave. I would rather avoid mine altogether.



Let me know that immortality thing works out for you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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