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InvisibleThirdEyeOpening
Lost In My Head
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 2,287
Loc: How the fuck should i kno... Flag
Social Security
    #3270454 - 10/24/04 05:00 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Who here thinks this should actually be saved? I think it needs a bullet in its head. If you are too ignorant to set up an IRA for yourself, then you dont deserve to retire. For those still on it, they can have there money at our continued expence, but its not like they get much. I may not be proficcent in politics, i just couldent get used to shovelin shit, but social security doesnt make sence any more. Nor does the current tax laws, i feel all taxes should be banned, and a nation wide sales tax be instated.


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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. Im not too sure about the former.      -Einstein

Of course the rules need to be enforced, but the goal of law and order should be to create a just society, not to enforce laws. -Unknown

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”  -Stephen Roberts


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OfflineCiv
Pinning
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Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 2,509
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Social Security [Re: ThirdEyeOpening]
    #3270509 - 10/24/04 05:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

[quote ] Nor does the current tax laws, i feel all taxes should be banned, and a nation wide sales tax be instated.




local goverment = stronger. let the people decide what happens in THEIR states and counties.

Kill SS and not tax? Tabbaco, gas and alcohol then you would be letting those companys rape your population and farm them for their money.

Would be kinda Darwin-ish. An Interesting idea, but I think local strong goverment 4 the win.


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"...Gal's seem to hate the thought of blending chicken shit in a blender.
So, wash it well afterwards & DON'T tell them..."  -Agar


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Social Security [Re: ThirdEyeOpening]
    #3270511 - 10/24/04 05:27 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It should be saved by privatization.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGoldenShroom
shhhh ....don'ttell anyone!

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 91
Loc: wherever shrooms grow wil...
Re: Social Security [Re: silversoul7]
    #3273262 - 10/24/04 11:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's a poorly run socialist program that burdens the economy, businesses and hard working people. It sure as hell shouldn't be mandatory. people should be allowed the opportunity to do what they want with their money. The people who need it don't get enogh to cover their needs and it's a waste when given to those who don't need it. A bullet in the gut to let it slowly die.

Privitazation would be a distaster as people would be crushed throwing their money into a secular bear, and more importantly it can't be done when running a huge deficit.


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-The killer in me is the killer in you... so I send this smile over to you


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Offlinequarkyquasar
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Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 310
Loc: NorCaL
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Social Security [Re: GoldenShroom]
    #3273305 - 10/24/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The people on social security PAID into it their whole lives and DESERVE it. What about the people in ghettos and slums? Do you expect them to save when they cant put food on their tables? Is it their fault that all they make is 6.00 an hour? What about rural people who live in small towns and the only jobs are low paying service jobs? Should they have to choose between their kids education and saving for retirement? BULL
Also, what happens if you get sick or hurt? Who will take care of you without social security?
NO-ONE will, you will be a bum and begging for someone to help you.
What we need is the damn republicans to start spending responsibly and for both parties to get together and come up with REALISTIC solutions to the long term crisis.
Not everyone has a choice in their lot in life...and need a helping hand. Have some compassion.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: Social Security [Re: silversoul7]
    #3273364 - 10/25/04 12:00 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
It should be saved by privatization.




Maybe. But not by Bush's half-assed plan. In any case, continued borrowing and spending from SS isn't helping anything. If that trend hadn't been going on for the last decade or so, we wouldn't really need to be "saving" social security now.


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Happiness is a warm gun...


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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
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Re: Social Security [Re: ThirdEyeOpening]
    #3291608 - 10/28/04 11:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Social security was never meant to be used. It was passed in 1934. Workers could collect it when they turned 65 right. What was the average life expectancy back in 1934? The goverment planned on few people making it to 65 at that time.


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Social Security [Re: ThirdEyeOpening]
    #3292046 - 10/29/04 01:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I collect social security and LTD from MetLife because I am disabled. If it weren't for SS, then MetLife would get stuck providing all of my income. I was initially concerned with SS issues, but I am fortunate enough to have been subscribing to long term disability insurance via my employer before claiming disability. But I can't be so selfish...more people are not as fortunate as me. They collect only a small amount of income from SS, and any reduction in benefits could be terrible.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Social Security [Re: daussaulit]
    #3292052 - 10/29/04 01:44 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

daussaulit said:
Social security was never meant to be used. It was passed in 1934. Workers could collect it when they turned 65 right. What was the average life expectancy back in 1934? The goverment planned on few people making it to 65 at that time.




Interesting point.
Does anyone know if congress has ever voted on a bill to raise the minimum age to collect?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Social Security [Re: Viaggio]
    #3292072 - 10/29/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
I collect social security and LTD from MetLife because I am disabled. If it weren't for SS, then MetLife would get stuck providing all of my income. I was initially concerned with SS issues, but I am fortunate enough to have been subscribing to long term disability insurance via my employer before claiming disability. But I can't be so selfish...more people are not as fortunate as me. They collect only a small amount of income from SS, and any reduction in benefits could be terrible.



In 20 years how many people do you think will be able to get SS from a bankrupt system.

Just out of curiousity what is your disability?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social Security [Re: Gijith]
    #3292078 - 10/29/04 01:53 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)


Does anyone know if congress has ever voted on a bill to raise the minimum age to collect?

They have. The age for full benefits is now 67 something instead of
65. They raised it a few years back as I remember.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Social Security [Re: quarkyquasar]
    #3292115 - 10/29/04 02:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The people on social security PAID into it their whole lives and DESERVE it. What about the people in ghettos and slums? Do you expect them to save when they cant put food on their tables? Is it their fault that all they make is 6.00 an hour? What about rural people who live in small towns and the only jobs are low paying service jobs? Should they have to choose between their kids education and saving for retirement? BULL

Amen. The whole "abolish social security" is just another way of making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Forcing thousands of starving people into the workplace would drive wages through the floor for everyone. It's every corporations wet dream. Instead of having to go to the third world to set up factories the corporations could save money opening factories and paying slave labour rates here.

We didn't have social security back in the 1800's. The lives of poor people were abysmal. Anyone who wants to go back to those times is a delusional.

NO-ONE will, you will be a bum and begging for someone to help you.

Badnarik says the church will save everyone  :grin:

Trust in Jimmy Swaggart...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Social Security [Re: z@z.com]
    #3292119 - 10/29/04 02:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm confident that SS will be reformed within 20 years. This may sound fanatical, but I truly believe that harnessing stem cells will lead to much longer, healthier lives. With older, but more capable citizens, SS will probably evolve into something better suited for these new kinds of citizens as they become the majority.

I have a rare neurological condition called Friedreich's Ataxia.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Social Security [Re: Viaggio]
    #3292134 - 10/29/04 02:11 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
I'm confident that SS will be reformed within 20 years. This may sound fanatical, but I truly believe that harnessing stem cells will lead to much longer, healthier lives. With older, but more capable citizens, SS will probably evolve into something better suited for these new kinds of citizens as they become the majority.




I think you give more credit to our elected officials than they deserve. Do you know what the fastest growing segment of the population is? It is the senior citizens. They don't want any reform as they won't be alive long enough to see the benifits.
Quote:


I have a rare neurological condition called Friedreich's Ataxia.



That sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. I still think you would be better served by private charities though.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Social Security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3292147 - 10/29/04 02:14 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So social security was the defining attribute of the american government which brought everyone out of "abysmal" conditions? Get a fucking clue, serriously. FDR only lengthened the great depression, the only reason we came out of it was WW2.

I just dont see how anyone can support this ponzi scheme.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Social Security [Re: Xlea321]
    #3292153 - 10/29/04 02:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Amen. The whole "abolish social security" is just another way of making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Forcing thousands of starving people into the workplace would drive wages through the floor for everyone. It's every corporations wet dream. Instead of having to go to the third world to set up factories the corporations could save money opening factories and paying slave labour rates here.




I don't think we can or should simply abolish it because many people are counting on it. I think we should get rid of it gradually. I think we should say something like those over 50 will get social security, but those who are not that old will simply have to eat the cost. It's unfortunate that it has come to this, but I see no other way out.

Quote:

We didn't have social security back in the 1800's. The lives of poor people were abysmal. Anyone who wants to go back to those times is a delusional.

NO-ONE will, you will be a bum and begging for someone to help you.
The lives of the rich and middle class also sucked in comparison to today. Technology and hard work have increased the wealth we all have.
Badnarik says the church will save everyone  :grin:

Trust in Jimmy Swaggart...




--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Social Security [Re: d33p]
    #3292161 - 10/29/04 02:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
FDR only lengthened the great depression, the only reason we came out of it was WW2.




I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Ever read the broken window fallacy by Bastiet? We came out of the great depression despite government actions (including WW2) not because of them. I will agree with you that the new deal lengthened it however.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Social Security [Re: z@z.com]
    #3292180 - 10/29/04 02:28 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not very informed on the social security issue, but I recently skimmed over an article in Fortune magazine which described a solution it developed for the problem. I remember the article explaining some sort progressive reform (as opposed to the change taking affect instantaneously). I have faith in man. We're gonna accomplish more in the next 20 years than we did the last 20.

Regarding my circumstances, yes, private organizations and such do provide a wonderful amount of effort, but the synergy of government collaboration would bring about results much faster, and it would cover a broader basis so that almost all citizens could benefit.

Sorry for the hijack.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


Edited by viaggio (10/29/04 02:46 AM)


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Social Security [Re: z@z.com]
    #3292183 - 10/29/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So you are saying ww2 didnt bail us out of the depression and that book proves it? Well i can tell you i'm not going to read a book that tries to disprove something i know for sure is true.

Anyone with even a relatively basic knowledge of ww2 would know how much it aided america finacially.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlineoggleman
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Male
Registered: 01/21/04
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Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Social Security [Re: z@z.com]
    #3292224 - 10/29/04 02:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What if someone has cancer and has to undergo kemotherapy?  Kemotherapy is expensive, dehabilitating, and a lengthy process.
For conversational purposes this could be any chronic and/ or deadly disease, but cancer is the example i'll run with here. 

Under the libertarian plan, someone under kemotherapy (unless they were rich) would be fucked because they couldn't work while they were having the therapy, so they couldn't make money to pay into their private, self-funded insurance plan which is being charged heavily by the expensive kemotherapy.

So this person has two options:

1)  Die.  You can't afford kemo so you can't get it. Besides, as a bedridden cripple you're a drain on and an annoyance to the wealthy.

2)  Get kemo and just incur the cost as debt.  And don't worry, there will be plenty of interest to go with that debt, because unregulated market forces would keep the rates nice and high.  Then, if you survive, you're working a big chunk of your life just to pay off the debt, THEN you can start working on your savings all over again.

Not to mention the cost surge in EVERYTHING that would happen if the drastic tax cuts libertarians advocate were to happen.

Good plan folks, just let em die.

Oh wait theres a 3rd option:

:thumbup: Support Social Security Reform! :thumbup:

God I could go on forever...


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