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 SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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 The Power of Zen. 
#3268832 - 10/23/04 05:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Zen-action can be described as ?taking one small trivial step at a time? towards a peripherally larger goal.? When you practice this Zen-action, and focus not on the hundred things that you will or may have to do at some future time but on the one thing that you can do now, it takes your attention, which is your primordial intelligence, into the intense present moment awareness that allows the doing [rather than the ends to the doing] to become deeply satisfying and content. It brings out the Stillness that is deep within the timeless dimension of the present and inseparable from whom you truly are.
So do not be concerned with the fruit of your action ? just give attention to the action itself. The fruit will come of its own accord. This is a powerful spiritual practice. In the Bhagavad Gita, one of the oldest and most beautiful spiritual teachings in existence, non-attachment to the fruit of your action is called Karma Yoga. It is described as the path of ?consecrated action.?
When the compulsive striving away from the Now ceases, the joy of Being flows into everything you do. The moment your attention turns to the Now, you feel a presence, a stillness, a peace. You no longer depend on the future for fulfillment and satisfaction ? you don?t look to it for salvation. Therefore, you are not attached to the results. Neither failure nor success has the power to change your inner state of Being. You have found the life underneath your life situation.
The whole essence of Zen consists in walking along the razor's edge of Now ? to be so utterly, so completely present that no problem, no suffering, nothing that is not who you are in your essence, can survive in you. In the Now, in the absence of time, all your problems dissolve. Suffering needs time; it cannot survive in the Now.
Embrace the power of Zen... It is already within you.
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (10/23/04 07:46 PM)
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 lovelight
float
Registered: 08/27/04
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 thank you, very true
It's amazing how such a simple, and what should be a natural and logical concept can escape us. We become engrossed in information imposed on us by society, obsess over trivialities we turn into problems and inturn cause our own suffering, and hopelessly try to control the outcome of our future. (or at least this was me for a while, I shouldn't speak for others)
Living in the present means truly experiencing the essence of reality, and the result is peace and happiness you mentioned....
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Turn on your lovelight, let it shine on me
Edited by lovelight (10/25/04 03:04 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 36,960
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Re: The Power of Zen. [Re: lovelight]
#3275020 - 10/25/04 11:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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lots of dualism in this summary,
my take is a much simpler approach
act and actor are one thing
action and result are one thing
known and unknown are one thing
the seed and the tree are one thing
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Any winning athlete utilizes the basics of Zen, at least in that limited arena. Focusing on the action at hand instead of the score or a bad ref's call or your swollen ankle or whatever, will enable one to be a better performer and increase one's chance of winning.
As one with trophies in two sports, I understand this from a practical standpoint. However, this staying in the now has never even remotely cracked open a door or given a view to another dimension or aspect of being. We can witness the fall of sports greats all the time. Explain how mindfulness is related in any way to being more spiritual or mature.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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kbilly
earthwalker
Registered: 09/01/04
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Re: The Power of Zen. [Re: Swami]
#3275963 - 10/25/04 04:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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"We can witness the fall of sports greats all the time."
so they concentrate when they compete doesnt mean they do that every other moment.
"Explain how mindfulness is related in any way to being more spiritual or mature"
its only the basis of almost half the religions on earth.
dude you dont have a clue, zen practice will allow you to focus on the now rather than the future and the past, in other words whats real, and thats the ultimate maturity, not being like a child and grasping for what you dont have or cant get.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 36,960
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Re: The Power of Zen. [Re: Swami]
#3276434 - 10/25/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
Any winning athlete utilizes the ...[snip]...We can witness the fall of sports greats all the time. Explain how mindfulness is related in any way to being more spiritual or mature.
zen mindfullness will make you more like a child.
It takes life situations to determine who is more mature, and the judment is valid only briefly, this is not a sports contest, so the goal is to become more child-like; really not a for profit or for trophy venture.
swami, your scrutiny upon such as "Template shift cosmic trippy shit stuff" and "alien abductions" brings great bubble bursting fun on logical contortions and blind lead flocks of blind - this has a different quality, you burst and it is fine, you don't burst it bursts itself, real child's play.
It keeps coming up in forums that deal with Art or psychedelics, because these endeavors take the person out of habit and into "the moment", and the experience of it is strange.
facing the strange is a kind of strength that the child has more of than the adult. a paradox about maturity in some ways.
the "trippy stuff" gets picked up as the adult pretends to come to grips with it (no longer quite child like, but pretty silly just the same), the zen stuff is not gripping - not clinging.
{kbilly, my take on like the child seems to be different than yours, child-like is different than child-ish which you might have been thinking of}
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Edited by redgreenvines (10/25/04 06:17 PM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Explain how mindfulness is related in any way to being more spiritual or mature.
Perhaps it would help to understand if we would use the term Beingfulness rather than mindfulness. When one lives too much in mindfulness, i.e., identifying themselves with their mind and not with Being, it creates a constant state of deficiency. Egoic deficiency, you could say.
For further elucidation keep this in mind as I reply to RedGreenVines.
zen mindfullness will make you more like a child.
It takes life situations to determine who is more mature, and the judment is valid only briefly, this is not a sports contest, so the goal is to become more child-like; really not a for profit or for trophy venture.
child-like is different than child-ish...
You hit the nail on the head.
I created a thread long ago to demonstrate this precise point, amongst others; "Children's Intrinsic Wisdom", and it's premise is particularly relevant here, thus I will show it here.
The first part is a column of notes, comparing Being cognition, and Deficiency Cognition.
Characteristics of Being-Cognition and Deficiency-Cognition of the World:
State of Being: B-Cognition. [Wholeness, Spiritual]
State of Deficiency: D-Cognition. [Egoic]
B-Cognition
1.) Seen as whole, as complete, self-sufficient, as unitary, Either Cosmic Consciousness, in which whole cosmos is perceived as single thing with oneself belonging in it; or else the person, object, or portion of the world seen is seen as if it were the whole world, i.e., rest of the world is forgotten. Integrative perceiving of unities. Unity of the world or object perceived.
D-Cognition
1.) Seen as part , as incomplete, not self-sufficient, as dependent upon other things.
______
B-Cognition
2.) Exclusively, fully narrowly attended to; absorption, fascination, focal attention; total attention. Tends to de-differentiate figure and ground. Richness of detail; seen from many sides. Seen with ?care,? totally, intensely, with complete investment. Totally cathected. Relative importance becomes unimportant; all aspects equally important.
D-Cognition
2.) Attended to with simultaneous attention to all cause that is relevant. Sharp figure-ground differentiation. Seen imbedded in relationships to all else in world, as part of the world. Rubricized; seen from some aspects only; selective attention and selective inattention to some aspects; seen casually, seen only from some point of view.
______
B-Cognition
3.) No comparing [in Dorothy Lee?s sense]. Seen per se, in itself, by itself. Not in competition with anything else. Sole member of the class (in Hartman?s sense).
D-Cognition
3.) Placing on a continuum or within a series; comparing, judging, evaluating. Seen as a member of a class, as an instance, a sample.
______
B-Cognition
4.) Human-irrelevant.
D-Cognition
4.) Relevant to human concerns; e.g., what good is it, what can it be used for, is it good for or dangerous to people, etc.
______
B-Cognition
5.) Made richer by repeated experiencing. More and more perceived. ?Intra-object richness.?
D-Cognition
5.) Repeated experiencing impoverishes, reduces richness, makes it less interesting and attractive, takes away its demand-character. Familiarization leads to boredom.
______
B-Cognition
6.) Seen as unneeded, as purposeless, as not desired, as unmotivated perceiving. Perceived as if it had no reference to the needs of the perceiver. Can therefore be seen as independent, in its own right.
D-Cognition
6.) Motivated perceiving. Object seen as need-gratifier, as useful or not useful.
______
B-Cognition
7.) Object-centering. Self-forgetful, ego-transcending, unselfish, disinterested. Therefore, it-centered. Identification and fusion of perceiver and perceived. So absorbed into the experience that self disappears, so that whole experience can be organized around the object itself as a centering point or organizing point. Object uncontaminated and unconfused with self. Abnegation of the perceiver.
D-Cognition
7.) Organized around ego as a centering point, which means projection of the ego into the percept. Perception not of the object alone but of the object-mixed-with-the-self-of-the-perciever.
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B-Cognition
8.) The object is permitted to be itself. Humble, receptive, passive, choiceless, undemanding. Taoistic, nonintereference with the object or percept. Let-be acceptance.
D-Cognition
8.) Active shaping, organizing, and selecting by the perceiver. He shifts it, rearranges it. He works at it. This must be more fatiguing than B-cognizing, which probably is fatigue-curing. Trying, striving, effort, Will, control.
______
B-Cognition
9.) Seen as end in itself, self-validating. Self-justifying. Intrinsically interesting for its own sake. Has intrinsic value.
D-Cognition
9.) A means, an instrument, not having self-contained worth but having only exchangeable value, or standing for something else, or a ticket to some other place.
______
B-Cognition
10.) Outside of time and space. Seen as eternal, universal. ?A minute is a day; a day is a minute.? Disorientation of perceiver in time and space, not conscious of surroundings. Percept not related to surroundings. Ahistorical.
D-Cognition
10.) In time and space. Temporal. Seen in history, and in the physical world.
______
B-Cognition
11.) The characteristics of Being are perceived as values of Being.
D-Cognition
11.) D-Values are means-values, i.e., usefulness, desirability-undesirability, suitability for a purpose. Evaluations, comparisons, condemnations, approvals, or disapprovals, judgments upon.
______
B-Cognition
12.) Absolute [because time-less and spaceless, because detached from the ground, because taken per se, because rest of world and history all forgotten]. This is compatible with the perception of process and shifting, alive organizations within the perceptions ? but it is strictly within the perception.
D-Cognition
12.) Relative to history, to culture, to characterology, to local values, to the interests and needs of man. It is felt to be passing. Depends on man for its reality; if man were to disappear, it would disappear. Shifting from one syndrome to another as a whole, i.e., it is now a bit in this syndrome, now a bit in that syndrome.
______
B-Cognition
13.) Resolution of dichotomies, polarities, conflicts. Inconsistencies seen to exist simultaneously and to be sensible and necessary, i.e., to be seen as a higher unity or integration, or under a superordinate whole.
D-Cognition
13.) Aristotelean logic, i.e., separate things seen as dissected and cut off and quite different from each other, mutually exclusive, often with antagonistic interests.
______
B-Cognition
14.) Concretely [and abstractly] perceived. All aspects at once. Therefore ineffable [to ordinary language]; describable, if at all, by poetry, art, etc., but even this will make sense only to one who has already had same experience. Essentially aesthetic experience [in Northrop?s sense]. Nonchoosing preferring or selecting. Seen in its suchness [different from the concrete perception of young children, of primitive adults, or of brain-injured people because it coexists with abstract ability].
D-Cognition
14.) Only abstract, categorized, diagrammatic, rubricized, schematized. Classifying. ?Reduction to the abstract.?
______
B-Cognition
15.) The idiographic object; the concrete, unique instance. Classification impossible [except for abstracted aspects] because sole member of its class.
D-Cognition
15.) Nomothetic, general, statistical lawfulness.
______
B-Cognition
16.) Increase of dynamic isomorphism between inner and outer worlds. As the essential Being of the world is perceived by the person, so also does he concurrently become closer to his own Being, and vice versa.
D-Cognition
16.) Decreased isomorphism.
______
B-Cognition
17.) Object often perceived as sacred, holy, ?very special.? It ?demands? or ?calls for? awe, reverence, piety, wonder.
D-Cognition
17.) Object ?normal,? every-day, ordinary, familiar, nothing special, ?familiarized away.?
______
B-Cognition
18.) World and self [not always] seen as amusing, playful, comic, funny, absurd, laughable; but also as poignant. Laughter [which is close to tears]. Philosophical humor. World, person, child, etc., seen as cute, absurd, charming, lovable. May produce mixed laughing-crying. Fusion of comic-tragic dichotomy.
D-Cognition
18.) Lesser forms of humor, if seen at all. Serious things quite different from amusing things. Hostile humor, humorlessness. Solemnity.
______
B-Cognition
19.) Noninterchangeable. Not replaceable. No one else will do.
D-Cognition
19.) Interchangeable. Replaceable.
In innocence; i.e., to the innocent, everything moves toward becoming equally probable; everything is equally important; everything is equally interesting. The best way to try to understand this is to see it through the eyes of the child. For instance, to the child the word importance doesn?t mean anything at first. That which catches the eye, anything that glitters or happens to strike the eye by accident is as important as anything else. There seems to be only rudimentary structuring and differentiation of the environment [what comes forward as figure and what recedes into the background as ground].
If one expects nothing, if one has no anticipations or apprehensions, if in a certain sense there is no future, because the child is moving totally ?here-now,? there can be no surprise, no disappointment. One thing is as likely as another to happen. This is ?perfect waiting,? and spectatorship without any demands that one thing happen rather than another. There is no prognosis. And no prediction means no worry, no anxiety, no apprehension or foreboding. Any child?s reaction to pain, for instance, is total, without inhibition, without control of any kind. The whole organism goes into a yell of pain and rage. Partly this can be understood as a concrete reaction to the concrete here-now moment. This is possible because there is no expectation of the future, hence no preparation for the future, no rehearsal or anticipation. Neither is there any eagerness when the future is unknown. [?I can?t wait]. There is certainly no impatience.
In the child there is a total unquestioning acceptance of whatever happens. Since there is also very little memory, very little leaning on the past, there is little tendency in the child to bring the past into the present or into the future. The consequence is that the child is totally here-now, or totally innocent one could say, or totally without past or future. These are all ways of defining further concrete perception, B-cognition [of the child], and also the occasional B-cognition of the sophisticated adult who has managed to achieve the ?second na?vet?.?
This is all related to my conception of the creative personality as one who is totally here-now, one who lives without the future or past. Another way of saying this: ?The creative person is an innocent.? An innocent could be defined as a grown person who can still perceive, or think, or react like a child. It is this innocence that is recovered in the ?second na?vet?,? or perhaps I will call it the ?second innocence? of the wise old man who has managed to recover the ability to be childlike.
Innocence on the behavioral side is unself-conscious spontaneity when absorbed or fascinated; i.e., lack of self-awareness, which means loss of self or transcendence of it. Then behavior is totally organized by fascination with the interesting world outside the self, which then means ?not trying to have an effect on the onlooker,? without guile or design, without even being aware that one is an object of scrutiny. The behavior is purely experience and not a means to some interpersonal end.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Love is love's reward
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Disclaimer!?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 36,960
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Re: The Power of Zen. [Re: Gomp]
#3278580 - 10/26/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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skorpio,
that's lots of text.
I can only hold one screen in my mind at once to check against my references.
can you distil?
swami,
very sad to report that 1 year ago, my younger brother passed away due to complexity related to extreme tension. he was unable to sit still, and through his life it got worse and worse, his fingernails were bitten to 1/4 of an inch.
it was a mess.
I wish I could have helped, but the door was not open.
in the least case, meditation practice makes one more calm.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Red,
That was good. You wrote a lot of what I couldn't spit out into words.
Zen to me is the art of becoming. This is akin to childs play of pretend and "what if" games. becoming something, even if in imagination, allows you to understand something as yourself better.
Children make up games with pretend monsters and bad guys out to get them to experience "fear while safe" and often to work out fears and through fears.
They also play super hero stuff to feel powerful. No different then a lot of these new agers who are caught up in beleiving they are here to save the planet and mankind (save yourselfs while I go to star bukcs for some java) Oh fuck LOL it's all silly play. No different then how swami says its his job to say people from their irrational selfs with logic. Playing superhero is playing super hero.
There are many great athletes who you just know tapped into "it" because they don't take it or themselves seriously all of the time, they are like grown children, Magic Jonson, Mike Jordan, Jackie Chan, Arnold Shwazeneager come to mind. That "it" allows for them to surpase many limtitations of logic.
They get to be so much more then most will allow themselves to be because of "IT" that zen magic and the power it weilds, the power to become. The quest for realising human potential is almost dependent upon it.
Same with the cosmic trippy shit, it pushes us to play grand games of "what if?" In that play, we get to realise so much about the self and others.
Like you said RED, if it ever overrides one with gripping intensity or seriousness for long durations, it's not Zen like anymore and becomes unhealthy. Children know how to take off the costumes and change roles easily and this allows them to become so much more and to also just "be" sometimes.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 36,960
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:...
This is akin to childs play of pretend and "what if" games. becoming something, even if in imagination, allows you to understand something as yourself better.
...
I would definitely not say akin to "what if" at all.
to be as a child without preconceptions is to be faced with the unknown. Pretend is something else.
Pretend is not zen, not the way to go to get to child-like mind.
adult play and teasing is "what if".
adults are in habit land and forget what it is like to live in the unknown world which is zen land.
I think you partly agree with me an partly don't see what I'm saying yet, or didn't before.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
There are many great athletes who you just know tapped into "it" because they don't take it or themselves seriously all of the time, they are like grown children, Magic Jonson, Mike Jordan, Jackie Chan, Arnold Shwazeneager come to mind. That "it" allows for them to surpase many limtitations of logic.
They get to be so much more then most will allow themselves to be because of "IT" that zen magic and the power it weilds, the power to become. The quest for realising human potential is almost dependent upon it.
I dunno, I always thought of Zen as a state where one becomes so present in the experience and the actions that one is not even aware (not even aware that one is or isn't aware  ). It is a state of emptiness. If one is striking a golf ball with a club, there isn't anything but the actions occuring. It is pure awareness without any conscious obstructions.
While what you are speaking of, realizing human potential and becoming, isn't Zen, from what I have come to understand of Zen, but it is certainly benefited by Zen. It is action performed or being experienced with pure awareness... no mental shaping of reality, only an immediate, constant, pure presence that isn't distingushed, defined, or discussed while in Zen... silent action, silent being....
Zen is... 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
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zen is like waiting really long at a chinese restaurant for your food
only to find that they only serve take-out there
by the time you get home and phone them
the restaurant is already closed
and it's already saturday
not open on sunday
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I think I agreed and added too it, my own take of course. You are focusing on how a childs mind goes about facing the unknown.
I watched my child do it everyday. She meets it one of two ways. With stifling "go back" fear OR with enthusiastic curiousity of what this new unknown can be all about. HER imagination plays a VITAL role in both responces or re-actions.
To you ZEN is the world of the unknown. To me and I may be using the word very loosly, it's the world of "what can be". It's the same thing to me. And there is a lot of power there, one can tap into and use it or become terrified by it and loose it.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 36,960
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
I dunno, I always thought of Zen as a state where one becomes so present in the experience and the actions that one is not even aware (not even aware that one is or isn't aware ).
Go and see then,
it is more awareness, not less or "without awareness".
The awareness itself is made of voidness, better to avoid discussing about voidness or emptiness here -
much easier to think in terms of what you can really understand which is:
habits running the show vs
being as a child without all the habits.
the practice is mostly relaxation so that as awareness expands beyond the habituation screens, the person does not freak out too much.
the otherstuff is relavent but tightly connected to this, and unfortunately unless you grasp this firmly the other stuff is too foggy to mean anything.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Well I am not talking about how the child REACTS to the unknown, I am referring to how the child FACES the unknown, either without or before the reacting.
The whole thing about Zen (etc.) is detatching the reactions, Undoing the learned habits, kind of like unlearning, but really getting relaxed without (extra) fear (sometimes fear is the moment - one can be that fear and not go over to more reactions). Pretty hard work...
you hear a lot about attatchments, well it is not possesions they are talking about, but habituations, defenses, screens against the moment as old routines seek evidence in order to act in accordance with the personality matrix.
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Edited by redgreenvines (10/26/04 11:46 AM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Go and see then,
it is more awareness, not less or "without awareness".
Indeed, you are right, I didn't express myself as intended. 
What I meant to say is that Zen is more like pure awareness (I did mention this a couple of times later in the reply, just to show that I am not just trying to cover my own ass here  ).
When I said "not even aware", I was more referring to not being aware that one is aware, implying that the rational mind is not functioning, and is not processing the experience. I would surmise that pure awareness does not come with the realization that one is aware, or that there is even a "one" to be aware, as the awareness is completely focused in the moment and the actions and states of being contained within.
Quote:
The awareness itself is made of voidness, better to avoid discussing about voidness or emptiness here -
Indeed.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,387
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 23 minutes, 59 seconds
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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For sure, how can you say what ZEN isn't if it is the void of the unknown which equals the all that is yet to be realised?
It is the energy of isness and beingness that is tapped into and used for becoming what is or what can be. Thats why its so powerful.
I don't think anyone can say how it can be used either. It has limitless applications.
It has the transfomative power to turn the unaware into the aware, the what is, into the what can be, the unknown, into the known.
This is one of the words like EGO I think where everyone has their own meaning and use or non use for it.
I like hearing them all! I reserve the right to maintain my own!
Not to get off track with Reds point about how it is most naturally used and tapped into when the rigidity of habit and fixxed beleifs block the channel and flows of it's energy.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 10 months, 18 days
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
For sure, how can you say what ZEN isn't if it is the void of the unknown which equals the all that is yet to be realised?
You couldn't, but from what I have come to understand, I tend to associate zen with pure awareness, being and action without thought, emptiness, etc., and not what is unknown and yet to be realized.
Quote:
This is one of the words like EGO I think where everyone has their own meaning and use or non use for it.
Which is why there is so much misunderstanding when discussing matters where someone introduces the term "ego". Often times the discussion ends up becoming more about what the word "ego" defines to everyone instead of the actual thought and its meaning... we need to distingusish between these defintions and appropriately label them, thereby allowing for more understanding of the message and the meaning, thereby bringing everyone closer to being one.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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