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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
When do you revolt?
    #3268794 - 10/23/04 07:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

-declaration of independence

How far will the government overstep its bounds in order for you to make the conscious decision to take up arms against it? I'm asking personally... and more generally, if this part of the DofI should be taken literally, and if so, how do we know when?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: looner2]
    #3268881 - 10/23/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's a tough question, and I've wrestled with it personally.  I think the tyranny we put up with today is far worse than what the founding fathers revolted against.  The problem is that a revolution requires popular support in order to work, and most people nowadays either are content with the status quo or believe they can bring about change by voting for the lesser of two evils. :puke:  A revolution of the people would have to begin with a revolution of consciousness.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: looner2]
    #3268980 - 10/23/04 08:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

there are a lot of people in this country who are willing and able to break whatever laws they want to.  they just need to organize.  some of them already are :wink:

the empire will collapse and in its place will arise a bitter struggle between fuedal warlords for control of the wealth.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3269011 - 10/23/04 08:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Are you people suggesting everyone convert to Islam? It would turn the world into one big blood bath.


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OnlinetrendalM
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3269017 - 10/23/04 08:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You're the first one who mentioned Islam anywhere in this thread...so no, I don't think that's what these guys are suggesting at all.


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Offlinecb9fl
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Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: trendal]
    #3269057 - 10/23/04 08:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

With the current peak oil problem I don't think we'll have to wait long for an uprising. Oil is at about $50.50/barrel currently and heading towards $100/barrel.

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/2004/10/19/cx_da_1019topnews.html

When gas hits $3.50 - $4/gallon I think the average complacent attitude will change.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: cb9fl]
    #3269268 - 10/23/04 10:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i think first people have to agree there are problems, then they have to agree what the problems are. then they have to agree how to solve them without unknowlingly creating more problems....

then they actually have enact their solutions.

none of the above things have ever happened to my knowlage.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3269428 - 10/23/04 11:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

America today is under "Absolute despotism"? Are you fucking kidding me? rich white kid never thravelled to another nation and you can tell me that the USA is an "absolute despotism"? It's it time to totally change your politcs and be as vocal and as sure about the new view as you were about the old one?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: retread]
    #3269473 - 10/23/04 11:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

retread said:
America today is under "Absolute despotism"? Are you fucking kidding me?



Where did I use the term "absolute despotism"? Your ass is for shitting, so quit talking out of it.

Quote:

rich white kid never thravelled to another nation and you can tell me that the USA is an "absolute despotism"?



Wow, you're just full of assumptions, aren't you? As it so happens, I've travelled quite a bit outside of this country. Countries I've been to: Canada, Mexico, England, Germany(before and after the end of the Cold War), Austria, Hungary, Switzerland, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belize, Honduras, and El Salvador. That's the kind of opporunity being a rich white kid like me can give. And again, I never said "absolute despotism, so quit making shit up.

Quote:

It's it time to totally change your politcs and be as vocal and as sure about the new view as you were about the old one?





--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/23/00
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3269552 - 10/24/04 12:13 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I have thought about this many times, and I have come to a conclusion. Things arent bad enough. Not nearly bad enough. Not even close, things have to get much worse, and I dont even think 4 more years of Bush could bring it to that point. I have been to 18+ countries and we have it pretty damn good, and that's coming from a america hatin' liberal. Its still possible to revolt through the system.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: looner2]
    #3270642 - 10/24/04 06:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

well heres the opinion of a canadian, i dont think this was jsut limited to the states?

anyway i have set a few guidlines that im sticking to.  if teh US comes up with any military equipment, thats it.  i dont mean docking and such, we have warships here wvery now and tehn but they are jsut resting.  they come here in any possible form of hostile, ill crack.  but i dont think thats really teh question.

i agree with buddha somewhat.  its pretty fucking good here.  if someone pulled the shit that the states pulled on so many countries id be out shootin at them too.  no question.  ill be honest, i dotn know a ton about hte mouslim religion or even most of the countries.  but with what the us gov/buisness/military has done to various countries...i totally support them standing up to them and killing as many as possible.  in fact im suprised they took so much.  look what they have dealt with in their lives, then the states gets 2 buildings and 3000 people blown away and they go balistic.  word "hypocrite", or double standard comes to mind.

they have only proven themselves terrorists in my opinion.  and that to me is enough to stand up.  if i lived there id be uber pissed at their international shit.  but i dont live there, and for the best.  be in jail long ago.  i dont knwo if we get different news than you guys down south, but i honestly dont know how anyone can stand back and let their government do such things.  Kill for democracy, and kill to keep it away.

for a little different aspect, clearcutting is a huge, in my opinion problem, here.  dunno if anyone knows about the softwood lumber/freetrade shit goin on.  but the states ahs been robbing canadian logging companies blind, and the canadian gov bends over and takes it up the ass.  i am so pissed at all parties involved.  they have played the people so bad.  it was a huge deal, "Big job losses, mill closures, no work" and so on.  thing is its teh MILLS and refining of logs that jobs are lost.  they are still logging the same amount, if not more, logs.  they are shipping them out whole and skipping all the milling here.  so now the bc pop thinks the logging industry is suffering and therefor not realizing the unbelievable amount of forests being torn down.  Amazon north.  i am doing my small part to stop local developments adn logging, but i wont get into it.

ok i really got to sleep this time, hope that was on topic.

peace :smile:


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3270895 - 10/24/04 10:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Where did I use the term "absolute despotism"? Your ass is for shitting, so quit talking out of it.




The Constitution, which you've recently said that all people who don't agree with are your "sworn enemies", use that phrase to condone the right of revolution amongst the people. Now either you DONT Think that this is an "absolute despostism", meaning that the Constitution doesn't give you the right to revolt and you'd NEVER do anything against the Constitution, or you DO think it's an 'absolute despotism', and you do support the revoution. since your comments supported the revolution, and you are a SWORN ENEMY of those that would go against the Constitution, logically you'd have to think that the paramters outlined in the Constitution had been met. So, do you think that we are an absolute despot, making me correct, or do you not think that we are, meaning that you really don't care about what the Constitution says?
Quote:


Wow, you're just full of assumptions, aren't you? As it so happens, I've travelled quite a bit outside of this country. Countries I've been to: Canada, Mexico, England, Germany(before and after the end of the Cold War), Austria, Hungary, Switzerland, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belize, Honduras, and El Salvador. That's the kind of opporunity being a rich white kid like me can give. And again, I never said "absolute despotism, so quit making shit up.




Read above.Good thing you travelled. I tried to enter Yugoslavia during the cold war, THAT is a despotism.

So which is it collegeboy, are you still in support of revolution, even though you don't believe that we are in an "Absolute despotism", thus ignoring the Constitution, or do ou think that a revolution would be apropos, thus making your jabs against me irrelevant.


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #3270896 - 10/24/04 10:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Buddha5254 said:
I have thought about this many times, and I have come to a conclusion. Things arent bad enough. Not nearly bad enough. Not even close, things have to get much worse, and I dont even think 4 more years of Bush could bring it to that point. I have been to 18+ countries and we have it pretty damn good, and that's coming from a america hatin' liberal. Its still possible to revolt through the system.




Exactly. People here who think that getting a smack on the wrist for smoking ganja and having to pay taxes maeks this a despotism need to visit some nation where the women are executed in the public square for not wearing their burkahs.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: retread]
    #3270975 - 10/24/04 11:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

retread said:
The Constitution, which you've recently said that all people who don't agree with are your "sworn enemies", use that phrase to condone the right of revolution amongst the people. Now either you DONT Think that this is an "absolute despostism", meaning that the Constitution doesn't give you the right to revolt and you'd NEVER do anything against the Constitution, or you DO think it's an 'absolute despotism', and you do support the revoution.



Here you are falling into the same old fallacy everyone falls for. The Constitution doesn't give you any rights--it upholds them.

Quote:

since your comments supported the revolution, and you are a SWORN ENEMY of those that would go against the Constitution, logically you'd have to think that the paramters outlined in the Constitution had been met.



Can you point me to where in the Constitution it uses this term? From what I've seen of it, it limits the actions of government, not the people.

Quote:

So, do you think that we are an absolute despot, making me correct, or do you not think that we are, meaning that you really don't care about what the Constitution says?



I do care what the Constitution says, because all our leaders take an oath of office to uphold it. If they violate it, it can be considered breach of contract, and thus their legitimacy is undermined.

Quote:

Read above.Good thing you travelled. I tried to enter Yugoslavia during the cold war, THAT is a despotism.



There are varying degrees of despotism. Comparing our country with communist countries will not get us anywhere except to being more complacent when our government decides to violate even more of our rights.

Quote:

So which is it collegeboy, are you still in support of revolution, even though you don't believe that we are in an "Absolute despotism", thus ignoring the Constitution, or do ou think that a revolution would be apropos, thus making your jabs against me irrelevant.



Again, I'd really like to see where in the Constitution you pulled that phrase from, as the Constitution is meant as a limit on government, not the people. Also, although I don't support violent revolution as anything but a last resort, it is our policymakers who have sworn to uphold the Constitution, and their failure to do so constitutes breach of contract, which means that we are being led by illegitimate rulers.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: When do you revolt? [Re: looner2]
    #3271055 - 10/24/04 12:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i would revolt if the actual democratic process was suspended, if there was universal gun confiscation, or if freedom of the press was eliminated.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: looner2]
    #3271074 - 10/24/04 12:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I was just wondering what are some of the issues that bring about the thought of revolution. What is so bad here that someone would consider engaging our country in civil/revolutionary war?

Everything you see going on is the result of capitalism. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

In my eyes, the only way "the people" will revolt is if everyone realizes they've been had(bamboozled, hoodwinked) all throughout their life. Then after that giant leap, the average person then has to ACCEPT/ADMIT that they've been used.
But that will never happen. Most are content with making a few dollars to pay for their house and food(things that can be built and grown). Hippies tried to enact change with their communes, but it didn't work.

Americans are too lazy to do anything for themselves. There will never be a revolution unless it comes out of a race war.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: daimyo]
    #3271093 - 10/24/04 12:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Everything you see going on is the result of capitalism. Don't hate the player, hate the game.




BULLSHIT! Though this thread is not the place -- feel free to start a thread so I can tear that fallacious assertion apart.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineWorldbridger
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Registered: 05/15/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3271095 - 10/24/04 12:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, Welcome back!


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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3271098 - 10/24/04 12:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

Here you are falling into the same old fallacy everyone falls for. The Constitution doesn't give you any rights--it upholds them.




Good dodge! You made a great point, but i'll harp on how you use TWO HYPENS in your sentance and ignore the point! *shakes head*
Quote:


Can you point me to where in the Constitution it uses this term? From what I've seen of it, it limits the actions of government, not the people.




Who here didn't read the first post, where it's in bold? It's the Dec of I, not the Constitution, but wouldn't all founding documents be equally important to you?
Quote:


There are varying degrees of despotism. Comparing our country with communist countries will not get us anywhere except to being more complacent when our government decides to violate even more of our rights.




Yes, but not realizing that our country is among the 'most free' is simply backassed liberal ignorance. On a related note, you said that your parents were liberals, and that all who are aginst the Constitution are your 'sworn enemies", when the revolution begins, will you kill your family or will you order others to do it?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: When do you revolt? [Re: retread]
    #3271130 - 10/24/04 01:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yes, but not realizing that our country is among the 'most free' is simply backassed liberal ignorance.




the 'lesser of evils' argument is backassed conservative ignorance.

lethal injection is probably the least painful way to die, but that doesn't really make it much better than getting killed some other way, now does it?

The fact that America is the 'most free' is exactly why it needs to be held to the highest standards of freedom, and the transgressions of its government upon the people should not be tolerated.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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