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OfflineCyber
Ash
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3274469 - 10/25/04 06:39 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DeepDish said:
Quick question for all believers of natural rights. Why are these rights not given to every living being? What makes homo sapiens the only applicable species for these rights?




Can anyone name off the natural rights?

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Animal Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3274519 - 10/25/04 07:36 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

there's no such thing as natural rights.

the only rights animals have is to be eaten.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineDrBhang
jokkmokk

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Fung Isle
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3274537 - 10/25/04 07:46 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

yes I am really confused what "animal rights tha only applies to humans" we are talking about here. The only animal rights I can think of is for house pets and animals and laws that prevents abuse of them. There has been some news here in Norway latly that sex with animals is not illegal here but is not concideret a huge problem either, after all we are not kiwis :grin: j\k

anyways that is fine by me, I think there should be laws that make sure that house animals are doing ok, not only so much because the well beein of the animal (wich of course is also important) but also to keep a certain standard\quality on the food , milk, leather and so on..  i dont want to drink milk from a whipped cow, I want milk from a healthy cow.

But in nature there is no "rights" like others have point out. Darwin have written some words about the subject, survival of the strongest and all that.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Animal Rights [Re: DrBhang]
    #3274616 - 10/25/04 08:31 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But in nature there is no "rights" like others have point out. Darwin have written some words about the subject, survival of the strongest and all that.




which darwin essay on morality are you referring to? one where he talks about the extension of his purely-scientific theory into determining what is ethically and morally right/wrong? I am unaware of this essay and would appreciate you telling me which one that is.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineDrBhang
jokkmokk

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Fung Isle
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: Tao]
    #3274632 - 10/25/04 08:40 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

i didnt say a single word about essay on morality . I am talking about darwins survival essay.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DrBhang]
    #3274639 - 10/25/04 08:44 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

what does darwin's essay have to with anything? thats committing the naturalistic fallacy of drawing moral conclusions from objective facts.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineDrBhang
jokkmokk

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Fung Isle
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Animal Rights [Re: Tao]
    #3274730 - 10/25/04 09:21 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

well duh, the subject is animal rights. I simply mentioned it as suggested reading in how survival of species are not based on human ideas about morality or right or wrong.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Animal Rights [Re: DrBhang]
    #3274753 - 10/25/04 09:33 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

survival of species are not based on human ideas about morality or right or wrong.




speaking of "duh" :rolleyes:


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineCyber
Ash
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: Tao]
    #3274864 - 10/25/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Well if no one here can define it then how do argue its existence or non-existence?

For the record.

Human rights (natural rights) are rights which some hold to be "inalienable" and belonging to all humans, according to natural law. Such rights are believed, by proponents, to be necessary for freedom and the maintenance of a "reasonable" quality of life.

If a right is inalienable, that means it cannot be bestowed, granted, limited, bartered away, or sold away (e.g., one cannot sell oneself into slavery). The issue of which rights are inalienable and which are not (or whether any rights are inalienable rather than granted or bestowed) is an ancient and ongoing controversy. Rights may also be non-derogable (not limited in times of National Emergency)- these include the right to life, the right to be prosecuted only according to the laws that are in existence at the time of the offence, the right to be free from slavery, and the right to be free from torture.

Natural rights are moral rights that people would have no matter what their legal rights were and even if there were no government and no laws. (I.E. The right to defend your life with force)

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OfflineSpongerock
Stranger
Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 51
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Animal Rights [Re: Cyber]
    #3274951 - 10/25/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

animal rights = fork or spoon

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Animal Rights [Re: Spongerock]
    #3275095 - 10/25/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

you forgot knife...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3275106 - 10/25/04 12:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DeepDish said:
Quick question for all believers of natural rights. Why are these rights not given to every living being? What makes homo sapiens the only applicable species for these rights?




a better question is: Why do they call them 'natural rights' when they are completely unnatural, and have to be artificially enforced?

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Offlinekadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
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Registered: 05/21/04
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3276155 - 10/25/04 04:58 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

lets stop the foreplay. animals have no rights cause that would mean people have to do extra work and pay extra money. no other reason. society doesnt seem to care about animals rights (including human rights), and just basically cares about themselves. personal survival, extended to selfishness and greed in my opinion.

animal rights ARE real, im not going to find everyones official doc but here is british columbias public one. there are many pages all can be navigated from these links...they have made gettting info kinda hard.

Guid Animal Act
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/G/96177_01.htm
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/P/96372_01.htm
^^ Regulation
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/P/231_95.htm
Wild Life Act
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/W/96488_01.htm
Farming
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/resmgmt/fppa/refguide/other/870218-67_Appendix_C_Prov_Legislation.pdf
Vet Act
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/V/96476_01.htm

and so on and so on.

No one can argue there are not laws in place, teher are. and lots. but very few are carried out. places liek the SPCA(here) are completely useless. nothing ever happens they are just basically a kennel for stray animals. there is too much money n not worrying about other beings for something to be done. sad truth, at least where i live.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Animal Rights [Re: kadakuda]
    #3276233 - 10/25/04 05:18 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Laws are not rights. A law can be passed saying that it is legal to kill Jewish people; that does not mean humans have the right to kill Jewish people.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3276307 - 10/25/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I think animal rights should stem from common sense and basic compassion. I don't think eating an animal you killed is a problem. Or even necessarily sticking the stuffed head of an animal on your wall that you killed for sport. It's more in how you kill the animal. If you tortured and tormented the animal, that is wrong. If you killed it as quickly and cleanly as you were able, then you're just working within the system that some higher power set down for us. Or if you don't want the god aspect, nature evolved that way. But going above and beyond to be cruel to an animal is just plain wrong.

Now, killing another human is different. You don't need to kill them for food and any other motivation is base and morally wrong. Money, anger, revenge, etc. Self-defense is the only exception.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflineDeepDish
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 86
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: Animal Rights [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3276381 - 10/25/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

So back to the initial question, why do animals not have these rights? If a law was passed against the killing of animals, would you still have the right to kill them? If so, where does that right stem from.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3276859 - 10/25/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

no one is questioning the killing of animals. they are food, simple as that. i share the same feelings as unbeliever does (the non god version). i take it further becuase how many farmers treat tehir animals is torture and therefor wrong, in my books.

i got no problem with anythings death, its the pain/suffering that gets me red.

Ancalagon, unfortunatly here laws are rights. we have a few more rights thatn laws, but all the rights here are laws or stemed from laws (in regards to animals i should point out). the gov here has basically given teh responsibility to the SPCA and tehrefor doesnt do much of anything about animal cruelty. only untill it gets really bad on a huge scale will they do anything, and thats from public pressure (very rare).

just to make myself clear, im not against farming or eating or anythign liek that. what i am against is putting 20 chickens in a 6'x6' coop with a couple lights over top and sprinkling their chemical foods over top of their shit ingrained substrate. that is creul and unusual punishment, its just not seen that way by most.

animals are seen as a $ sign not as a living breathing being. things can get a LOT better with not much extra work.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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