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OfflineDeepDish
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Registered: 01/14/02
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Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Animal Rights
    #3268456 - 10/23/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quick question for all believers of natural rights. Why are these rights not given to every living being? What makes homo sapiens the only applicable species for these rights?


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268472 - 10/23/04 06:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Arrogance


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Animal Rights [Re: ekomstop]
    #3268500 - 10/23/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Should antibiotocs be banned because bacteria are living things?


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3268507 - 10/23/04 06:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Should food be banned because it was once living?


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268514 - 10/23/04 06:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You might have better luck with this in S&P.

I personally don't believe in natural rights.

:cheers:


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268520 - 10/23/04 06:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

From what I can tell, natural rights only apply to members of the same species and the interaction between them because they only apply within society. Other animals may have their own natural rights, but they only apply within their own society, and no other species is obliged to recognize them. I'm not sure, though. This is a question I've often wrestled with myself.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #3268536 - 10/23/04 06:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hm,

I thought Natural Rights was based around humans being rational creatures whose actions are thought-out. We must think to go eat, for example. I've disagreed with these grounds because they assume everyone is conscious of their action. Kind of how utility functions require people to be rational beings who weight out consequences and such before acting. However, I've found this applies chiefly to majorities.

Sorry about arguining against a point you never brought up, but this thread seemed like a good place for it.


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OfflineDeepDish
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #3268568 - 10/23/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Apply only within society? I thought the whole point of natural rights, was that they were based upon some fundemental logical principle that was applicable regardless of how a society is constructed.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268574 - 10/23/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Applicable to what?


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OfflineTao
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268644 - 10/23/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

'natural rights' are a crock of shit. where do they come from? how do we come to know what they are? they were just written down by some guy and he called them 'natural' and 'from god'. one of those instances of 'if you say it enough times it becomes true'.

what we call 'natural rights' are just a system that many believe to be a good balance between liberty and prosperity. nothing more.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3268676 - 10/23/04 06:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'd try to explain it right now, but I'd probably do a bad job of it. I'll wait until pinky sees this thread, as he always does the best job of explaining it.

I will say that while I used to consider natural rights a cornerstone of my beliefs, they're not really that important to me anymore, even though I still believe in them to some extent. I've found much more pragmatic reasons to be libertarian.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: silversoul7]
    #3270256 - 10/24/04 03:52 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Animals have no concept of "Rights", so obviously they don't feel entitled to them. They just want a safe place to live, food, and not be harmed or eaten by another animal.
I think we should look out for them because they don't have the capacity to do it themselves, but regarding animals the concept of "Rights" is irrelevant. Compassion is more appropriate.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3270586 - 10/24/04 06:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

are we forgetting we are animals as well.

i dont know where peolpe get animals dotn feel this cant think that. fact is we dont know, all we go by is their reaction. reaction can differ widely and i dont think is a very good way of determining something, although its probably the best we have right now.

i am absolutly for animal rights. aniamls eat, some eat plants some eat other animals that is natural. we are no different. wher ei get pissed is pet store situations, lab situations, circus situations and so on. every living thing has a right to live.

wher ei get really pissed is we move into their home take almost everything away from them and shoot them when they eat our garbage or walk down a road (where a few years ago they stalked their deer or whatever). i also get VERY pissed watching those dancing deer type things. also some types of farming gets me. especially those huge ass chicken farms. they treat the things like bean bags. if i had the immunity id shoot every god damn one of those people. even future food doesnt deserve a short life of pain.

we dont need animals for entertainment, eat your fill and stop torturing the poor things.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: kadakuda]
    #3270782 - 10/24/04 09:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Natural" rights are not natural. No-one can claim that rights exist as other than a social agreement. I had a huge debate with pinky on this one. Basically if you claim that natural rights exist then you claim that morality is objective which is a very difficult viewpoint to defend.

You also commit the sin of naturalistic fallacy (you can't conclude what someone *should* do from premises stating objective facts).


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: deafpanda]
    #3271202 - 10/24/04 01:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

well i dotn believe we have natural rights, im not syaing we do. i dont think we do at all. if we did things would be WAY different.

im not calling out sinners, but undue torture of any living being is just fucked right up. i am 100% against pain/suffer of any living being. it being common place and accepted doesnt make it any more right to me.

but yes, i shouldnt state things we should do from opinions. but from farming i SEE here, and pets stores i SEE things DO need to change. and change a lot. people would be singing a different tune if westerners or UK or someone was treated the same way.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3271494 - 10/24/04 03:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Animals have no concept of "Rights", so obviously they don't feel entitled to them. They just want a safe place to live, food, and not be harmed or eaten by another animal.
I think we should look out for them because they don't have the capacity to do it themselves, but regarding animals the concept of "Rights" is irrelevant. Compassion is more appropriate.





Couldnt of said it better myself. Some of these people think that in the animal kingdom that animals have a strict code of ethics. Nature is brutal its killed or be killed, since humans are at the top of the food chain than we have to eat to live.

Nothing in nature dies easily its brutal as hell.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #3272384 - 10/24/04 07:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

farming doesnt need to be brutal as hell. we go pay money for food, the vast majority in NA dont hunt our own food. it isnt brutal in our "civilized" society in that respect. im not saying animals have ethics, mayeb tehy do not for me to decide. what i dont see hpw anyone can say is animals cant decide or think aside from basic instinct. all assumption.

we seem to be holding ourselves above teh rest of the livinbg earth so isnt it above other things to do things in a moral way? clearly it isnt, but maybe it will become so.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3273696 - 10/25/04 01:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Like said above "natural rights" aren't natural in the direct literal sense. These rights that fall under "natural rights" may naturally come out of human/human interaction, but the only rights granted to us by "god" are the right to exist at atleast one point in time, and the right to act on ability.

Animals tend to be on the lower end of the predation chain relative to us. And lets be honest, life on this little floating rock is all about predation. Prey or be preyed upon. In the contest to not be preyed upon, cooperation arises. It is my contention that our morals are recommended conduct for intiating and maintaining cooperation, based on aggregate past experiences.

Based on that, I think it heads in the fallacious direction to apply our morals to animals, or better stated, to different species. Cooperation and predation are the only two words in the universal languageof life on earth and without either of them we would be screwed.


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: DeepDish]
    #3274395 - 10/25/04 07:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quick question for all believers of natural rights. Why are these rights not given to every living being? What makes homo sapiens the only applicable species for these rights?




because animals are sooooo tasty.....humans taste too much like chicken.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Re: Animal Rights [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #3274455 - 10/25/04 08:25 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

well put :thumbup:


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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