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Offlineoggleman
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Whats wrong with Kerry?
    #3264406 - 10/22/04 01:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well I've heard a lot about Kerry being such an evil evil person, but I want to hear more, specifically, how is he such a bad candidate for president that having him in office will be no better than Bush? Considering Bush's nack for dividing americans on trite issues, his ability to push aside our allies in the war on Iraq, his incredible fiscal irresponsibility, and so on, the "anybody but Bush" camp seems pretty persuasive to me. So why not "anybody but Bush"? Remember the way he won in 2000?

I want to hear why Kerry is a bad choice, not why the Libertarian candidate or any other third party candidate is a better one, as that is not the purpose of this thread.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3264446 - 10/22/04 01:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Kerry is a hollow man, a shell, a weathervane, an empty suit. He's a poser, a liar, a fantasist, a panderer, a self-admitted war criminal, a self-admitted traitor. He has been wrong on every single defense issue in his career as a politician. He will say anything to anyone and four hours later say the exact reverse. He is the most Liberal senator in the senate, and has been for years. He will raise taxes to a catastrophic level. He is a gigolo, a thin-skinned, petty, whiney, arrogant aristocrat whose most famous catch phrase is "do you know who I am?" as he indignantly pushes his way to the head of the line. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and smeared them for years after he left them behind by engineering a bogus way of evading his full tour.

To be charitable, he is a festering sack of pus.

That'll do for starters.


pinky


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Phred]
    #3264494 - 10/22/04 01:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

...and yet he's still a better choice than Bush.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Phred]
    #3264545 - 10/22/04 02:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Kerry is a hollow man, a shell, a weathervane, an empty suit. He's a poser, a liar, a fantasist, a panderer, a self-admitted war criminal, a self-admitted traitor. He has been wrong on every single defense issue in his career as a politician. He will say anything to anyone and four hours later say the exact reverse. He is the most Liberal senator in the senate, and has been for years. He will raise taxes to a catastrophic level. He is a gigolo, a thin-skinned, petty, whiney, arrogant aristocrat whose most famous catch phrase is "do you know who I am?" as he indignantly pushes his way to the head of the line. He betrayed his fellow soldiers and smeared them for years after he left them behind by engineering a bogus way of evading his full tour.

To be charitable, he is a festering sack of pus.






Well there were a few provable or disprovable statements intermingled with the petty name calling which comprised most of that post.

He's not a festering sack of pus, as far as I know he's a regular humanoid, with the same genetic makeup as you or I or Bush.

I doubt he's ever had sex for money, which means he's probably not a gigolo.

Care to expand on his war record, and how specifically he "betrayed his fellow soldiers"? Do you expect me to believe that as a leader he left his own soldiers in vietnam behind to get killed while he weaseled his way back to the states and then proceeded to "smear" them. Please expand on this, I find it hard to believe that he would even have a political career now if this were the case.

How is he a war criminal? How is he a traitor? Examples, man! I need more than just accusations.

Also give me just a few examples of his voting record on defense issues and how every single one was wrong.

How is simply rolling back tax cuts on the very wealthy equivalent to "raising taxes to a catastrophic level". Were taxes at a catastrophic level before the Bush tax cuts?

I could defend Kerry against the accusation of "the most liberal senator in the senate" but I'd have to quote the Kerry camp. And if he were, why would the democratic party choose such a whacko to represent them in this election when there are many other more moderate candidates?


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OfflineOrangeVWCamper
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3264642 - 10/22/04 02:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He's the lesser of the two evils.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Phred]
    #3264691 - 10/22/04 02:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? *DELETED* [Re: oggleman]
    #3264724 - 10/22/04 02:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Annapurna1


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Malachi]
    #3264751 - 10/22/04 02:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Haha sweet I love that metaphor... Haha windsurfing... Haha flip flopping... Man repooplickans will say anything!


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3264757 - 10/22/04 02:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yesterday he was preaching Guns and God. is that really what he or the Democratic party stand for.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3264788 - 10/22/04 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"I've been a fisherman since I was about three years old, four years old," Kerry said. "Flung my first line out with my dad. I've been a hunter since I was about 12 years old, and I went through the whole progression, you know, BB gun to .22s to .30-30, you name it."...

...The NRA says it doesn't matter if Kerry hunts, he usually votes against gun rights in the Senate. Kerry supports extending the ban on assault-type weapons and requiring background checks at gun shows. He opposes granting gun makers immunity from civil lawsuits.






source: www.wmsa.net

As you can see kerry was talking about guns in the context of hunting animals not people.

In regards to God he was trying to reach out to undecided conservative leaning voters by talking about his faith in order to relate to them, not to try and portray himself as a religious extremist.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3264799 - 10/22/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

most people can tell when someone is not sincere.(Kerry) with that said Bush has done alot of things I do not agree with.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3264894 - 10/22/04 03:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Saying someone is sincere or not is a subjective opinion. Bush may be more sincere than Kerry but its very easy to be sincere when all you say is things like "I hate evil" and "I will defend freedom", these are statements that while sincere and hard to discredit, aren't really taking a stand on any political issues.

Although, that being said, I personally find Kerry to be more sincere than Bush.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3265076 - 10/22/04 06:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

oggleman said:

I doubt he's ever had sex for money, which means he's probably not a gigolo.




Look at the bitch he married, shes loaded.
Quote:



Care to expand on his war record, and how specifically he "betrayed his fellow soldiers"? Do you expect me to believe that as a leader he left his own soldiers in vietnam behind to get killed while he weaseled his way back to the states and then proceeded to "smear" them. Please expand on this, I find it hard to believe that he would even have a political career now if this were the case.




Heh, then you'd be wrong. www.swiftvets.com isn't very neutral, but they do a good job covering it. After he left he talked about how the soldiers in 'nam were such horrible people.
Quote:


How is he a war criminal? How is he a traitor? Examples, man! I need more than just accusations.




He admitted to commiting war crimes in the Senate. Some of the admissions later turned out to be lies, so we don't know whats true and what isn't. He met with communist NV leaders in Paris while still a comissioned US Navy officer, hence, a traitor.
Quote:


Also give me just a few examples of his voting record on defense issues and how every single one was wrong.




He voted against the first gulf war, and against more intel spending after the first WTC bombing.
Quote:


How is simply rolling back tax cuts on the very wealthy equivalent to "raising taxes to a catastrophic level". Were taxes at a catastrophic level before the Bush tax cuts?




Yes, they were. however, he'll raise all taxes. Thats what democrats do.
Quote:


I could defend Kerry against the accusation of "the most liberal senator in the senate" but I'd have to quote the Kerry camp. And if he were, why would the democratic party choose such a whacko to represent them in this election when there are many other more moderate candidates?



Because hes got a pretty-boy face, same reason as Edwards. They are hoping he'll just woo the American public like a drunken bar-fly @ 2 in the morning.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3265102 - 10/22/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oggleman writes:

I doubt he's ever had sex for money, which means he's probably not a gigolo.

A teeny tiny bit of poetic licence. Very teeny tiny. He has a habit of marrying heiresses, then discarding them for even wealthier heiresses. Hard to know who can top Theresa, though. As heiresses go she's right up there. A cynical person might believe he marries for money. On second thought, gigolo might have been inaccurate. We don't actually know he has sex with Theresa. Let's change it to "gold digger".

Care to expand on his war record, and how specifically he "betrayed his fellow soldiers"?

Not again, no. There are dozens of threads in this forum detailing his Viet Nam roadshow. Search for "Winter Soldiers", "Swift Boat Veterans", "Purple Heart", "Christmas in Cambodia", "Paris Peace Talks", "Stolen Honor", "DD180 release form" for starters.

Do you expect me to believe that as a leader he left his own soldiers in vietnam behind to get killed while he weaseled his way back to the states and then proceeded to "smear" them.

Not without you doing a bit of research first, no. But that's exactly what he did. And he has never apologized for it.

Please expand on this, I find it hard to believe that he would even have a political career now if this were the case.

You and millions of others.

How is he a war criminal?

He has claimed on several occaions, including in sworn testimony before the Senate, that he committed acts against the Geneva Convention. His excuse for this was that (as an officer of the US Navy) he didn't know at the time they were war crimes.

How is he a traitor?

By meeting with the delegations from North Viet Nam and from the Viet Cong in Paris while he was still an officer of the US military.

Also give me just a few examples of his voting record on defense issues and how every single one was wrong.

He has voted -- by name -- against virtually every single weapons system in the current US armory. He voted against the Pershing missile program in Europe -- a key component of the collapse of the USSR. He voted for the "nuclear freeze" in the Eighties. He voted against the war to liberate Kuwait.

How is simply rolling back tax cuts on the very wealthy equivalent to "raising taxes to a catastrophic level".

"Rolling back" tax cuts is just another way of saying raising taxes. And he doesn't want to raise them just on the very wealthy, but on anyone making more than 200,000 a year. That includes more than three quarters of US small businesses. Finally, several independent economists have spent considerable time and effort attempting to accurately estimate the cost of all Kerry's new "plans" he swears he will implement. Their estimates range from 1.9 trillion dollars to 2.3 trillion dollars. Note that the current annual budget of the US is 2.3 trillion dollars. Further note that these are additions to current spending.

I could defend Kerry against the accusation of "the most liberal senator in the senate" but I'd have to quote the Kerry camp.

No, you couldn't defend him from that accusation. By the way, why is being identified as liberal such a shameful thing for liberals? Bush doesn't mind being called a "conservative". But to get back to the point, neither you nor anyone can defend him from that particular charge, because even liberal organizations admit he is the most liberal of all the senators. Even Michael Moore admits it.

And if he were, why would the democratic party choose such a whacko to represent them in this election when there are many other more moderate candidates?

Because the Democratic party has a long and fabled history of choosing whackos. George McGovern. Jimmy Carter. Michael Dukakis. Al Gore. John Kerry. Actually, Dukakis wasn't really a whacko, just a loser. Scratch his name from the list.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3265104 - 10/22/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For someone like yourself who sees big government as a good thing, I can't convince you why Kerry would be a bad choice. He would do exactly what you have said you support, increasing government involvement in every aspect of your life.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3265236 - 10/22/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i don't really like kerry or bush. not because of the type of people they are but the actions are what stand out for me. i'm an overt pacifist, enviromentalist, anarchist, and plain activist. i don't really like alot of politicians and anyone who supports the system directly. i hope that if anyone did through indirect means they would try to get rid of it as much as possible. I just think that we don't really have a choice at all. kerry can flash his medals around and george can talk about how kerry flipflops, but in the end they are both the same face with different lipstick. fuck them.


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: trick]
    #3265471 - 10/22/04 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Finally, I got some details I was looking for.

First, silversoul, I never said I wanted the government involved in every aspect of my life. However not all government programs are a bad thing, such as social security, defense, healthcare, environmental protection agency, and so on. I just can't understand why you think we'd be better off if all of these programs were cut and the dog eat dog nature of capitalism is left to run rampant and unchecked until we end up with a true aristocracy with unprecedented levels of economic stratification, just so we ... THANK GOD... DONT HAVE TO PAY TAXES!

So Kerry accused his men of being war criminals. First of all Vietnam itself was an illegal war that we had no chance of winning, and our justification for going into that war was questionable. Maybe his men were war criminals, how do we know that they were not. We all know that many vietnam soldiers were involved in atrocities in that war, such as carpet bombing civilian villages just because they "suspected" they were sympathetic to Ho Chi Minh.

or this...

Quote:

The CIA in Vietnam, in a program called 'Operation Phoenix,' secretly, without trial, executed at least twenty thousand civilians in South Vietnam who were suspected of being members of the Communist Underground.




-Howard Zinn, Peoples History of the United States, p468

THAT IS A FUCKING WAR CRIME IF YOU ASK ME

I hope you don't assume this is an isolated incident.

Quote:

On March 16, 1968, a company of American soldiers went into the hamlet of My Lai 4, in Quang Ngai province. They rounded up the inhabitants, including old people and women with infants in their arms. These people were ordered into a ditch, where they were methodically shot to death by American Soldiers




-People's History, p469

Hey look at that, ANOTHER war crime!

The point is that many soldiers were involved in war crimes, and just because Kerry called his men out on it, all of a sudden he's this horrible bad guy who can't be trusted.

Many people were saying that troops were deployed to Cambodia illegally, not just Kerry, they were called war protesters. Ever heard of a protester? They are people that see what our country is doing in other countries, don't like it, and decide to voice their opinion, are you going to call all of them liars and cheats?

Kerry is more "liberal" (oooh no, not a LIBERAL!) than 97% of his senatorial collegues.

Quote:

As Bush began using the ranking as a talking point, however, "National Journal" editor Charles Green explained in an August column that the ranking was skewed. The way the GOP describes the results, Green wrote, is "misleading" - or just plain wrong.

Green footnoted the column by publishing the Journal's lifetime average rankings, looking at senate voting records dating to 1981. Kerry, who was elected in 1984, was ranked as the 11th most liberal senator in those ratings; Mark Dayton, D-Minn., got first place.




Source: Dayton Daily News
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/content/shared/news/politics/stories/10/14liberal.html

There, now prove to me that he is more liberal than Senator Dayton.

Oh yea and lastly, just because Theresa Heinz was wealthy when he married her, you can't assume that was the only reason he married her. Until you can prove that he doesn't love her and her money was the only reason he married her, consider your argument nullified.

What else you have to throw at me?


Edited by oggleman (10/22/04 08:24 PM)


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: Phred]
    #3265591 - 10/22/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Oh yea I don't see him being liberal as a bad thing, being a liberal myself I would like to have a liberal president. But to call him the MOST liberal president, when he is not, is slander. It is just another thing the Bushies are throwing around to make him look bad.

But whatever, I don't care anymore, go ahead and waste your vote on Badnarick for all I care, just like I wasted my 2000 vote on Nader.



Edited by oggleman (10/22/04 08:55 PM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3265646 - 10/22/04 09:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

oggleman said:
But whatever, I don't care anymore, go ahead and waste your vote on Badnarick for all I care, just like I wasted my 2000 vote on Nader.




Because I strongly oppose most of what both Bush and Kerry support woulnd't voting for them be more of a wasted vote than voting for Badnarik?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Whats wrong with Kerry? [Re: oggleman]
    #3265694 - 10/22/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Re-read what I have written. Kerry is judged -- by liberals -- to be the most liberal senator. This label comes from a liberal organization (sorry, can't for the life of me think of its name at the moment) who are proud to be liberals. They publish every year their "scorecard" of votes on the various issues which came before the senate, and add it up by a point system. This isn't Bushite "slander", if you want to call it slander, it's liberal "slander". On their latest scorecard, Kerry is the most liberal, Kennedy is the second most, Edwards is number four on their list.

But whatever, I don't care anymore...

Ah. You cared enough to start a thread asking what's wrong with Kerry, but now that various people have answered the question you don't care anymore?

Thank you, please come again.


pinky


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