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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Tolle Lecture
    #3259322 - 10/21/04 05:41 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The world is full of interesting ideas, but none of these have saved the world from its madness. So if you have come with expectations of learning new and fascinating things, you may be disappointed. We are here to become acquainted with a state of consciousness that, since ancient times, has been pointed to by masters and teachers and teachings. Many different labels have been attached to that state of consciousness: enlightenment, salvation, liberation, self-realization, the end of suffering, the kingdom of heaven, the pearl of great price . . . they all point to the possibility of transcending the ordinary human state of consciousness, which has been running the world since the beginning of history. In fact, almost all of human history is a reflection of that ordinary, and in many ways dysfunctional state of consciousness. If there's still anybody left who doubts the dysfunction of the human mind, I suggest two things: You can either read a book on 20th century history, or you can watch TV tonight.

Not that there haven't been wonderful achievements in human history. Witness the great spiritual teachings and teachers and all the wonderful artistic creations - these have come from a far deeper place than the ordinary human mind. But sadly, most of history has been about watching the dysfunctional human mind in action. The great teachers have recognized this, and called it different names: the Buddha said humans are in dukkha, a state of suffering or dissatisfaction. Christianity talks of a state of sin, that's been greatly misinterpreted, but there are basic truths there. Hinduism speaks of a state of illusion. They also all point to the possibility of entering a different state of consciousness that is beyond the dysfunction of the human mind. A few people in history actually understood all of this and were able to live the message and enter that new state of consciousness that is free of suffering -- free of unhappiness, a state of deep connectedness with being, great creativity, and continuous inner peace.

Now, for the first time, this enlightenment is happening on a larger scale, not just to one person in ten million or less, as it did before. It is emerging now because it has to emerge: The planet would not survive another hundred years of the present human consciousness.

Where does the dysfunction of the human mind originate? It is not some external phenomenon to be examined, because it is within oneself. Just to realize this is the beginning of the end, or the beginning of stepping out of it. By recognizing the dysfunction, you are already beginning to transcend it.

If you observe your own mind, you will see that thinking very rarely ceases. It is as if some demon built a radio into everyone's head and removed the "off" switch. Most of our thinking is like those radio stations where there is constant chatter. It all sounds very important, and if you listened to it in a foreign language, you would think that they're actually talking about something significant, because they put so much energy into it. But if you listen to what they are saying, it's all pretty much meaningless.

Now this would be bad enough if the only problem was that you couldn't get rid of the noise, but it goes beyond that. You identify with it, and soon your whole sense of identity comes from it: "This is me, and I am a little person with a little past and a little future." So, an entity arises that is ultimately fictitious, a mental image of "little me," which is based on an underlying fear. And you are continuously seeking some liberation from this littleness through becoming bigger, and you are also seeking liberation from fear. On top of all this, there is a deep sense that something is lacking. This stimulates a continuous search for fulfillment, security, or prominence, a sense of being more fully alive, or of knowing who you are beyond all that your parents and society have told you.

Your image of yourself may be good in one minute, and bad in the next. It fluctuates between "I'm great" and "I'm dreadful" depending on what happens, for instance, if someone criticizes you. There is always a sense of insufficiency, or what I call egoic consciousness: a sense of self derived from the mind's activity, which is an extremely limited sense of self compared to the reality of who you are. When you are trapped in this mind-made sense of self, you are trapped in consciousness that is conditioned by the past. The "little me," I call it, that sometimes thinks it's a "big me". But even then, when it thinks "I'm the master of the universe " there is always the hidden fear that this is not so. And this is what creates all the insanity.

In order to maintain its fictitious state of identity, the little me needs to be in a state of opposition, or warfare. It needs to have a boundary around itself, so it says, "This is me and this the other, which is not me." Then a strong sense of separation develops between the image of the little me and the rest of the universe, which becomes threatening. This is the indeed the very root of madness: it needs enemies. Enemies might come in the form of people, or in the form of situations, but what it all means is that the little me also needs unhappiness, since it is fighting "what is." It is so deeply internalized that most human beings are unaware that they are continually running away from "what is," to some mentally projected future.

And the little me says, "I will attain something in the future that will make me more complete, and more fulfilled. Instead of being a little me, I will become a big me. One day I'm going to make it!" People go to the end of their lives believing this. The best thing that can happen if you do make it in that limited sense - you become wealthy, or recognized as this or that by society - is for you to discover that the little me is still a little me and not yet satisfied. That would be a wonderful realization. But people who don't make it are still attached to the illusion: "If I could only make it, I would be freed of all the unhappiness that I feel." Again, if you're lucky enough to make it, you are in a position to lose this last illusion, even though the loss will feel like despair. You still have that feeling of insufficiency, or "what now?"

People believe that their unhappiness is due to the content of their lives, that they will be happy if they obtain certain things. This is the belief, but it's not true. You'll be happy for a while, and then your old unhappiness will return in some other form. This is because unhappiness is about the structure of your thinking, and not the content of your life or thought. Realizing this is already the beginning of liberation. What a realization! As long as you are trapped in the egoic mind, you can never be free, no matter where you go, who you meet, what you achieve, or what planet or galaxy you reach . . . Isn't that amazing?

Sometimes when I talk about this, one or two people walk out. It is fascinating to watch, and it is because the unhappiness in them feels very threatened. "What's he saying?" their little me says. "He's trying to take away my unhappiness, and I've invested twenty or thirty years in it! How dare you say I can live without it!" You might react in this way, but if you do, just watch it. It's not you. It is just your mind pattern, because it feels threatened. But if you recognize the truth of these words, ask yourself where the recognition came from. Not from the conditioned sense of yourself, but from the deeper level of your being where the unconditioned consciousness lives. The unconditioned consciousness is the vastness of consciousness itself, the very intelligence that runs your body despite the mad mind. Every cell has vast intelligence. But sometimes the mad mind interferes so much that the bodily energy cannot flow anymore. There can be so many negative emotions and such deep unhappiness that blockages occur and the body becomes ill.

Always, we seek to end the unhappiness through time. "Time will get me out of my unhappiness," we say, "I only need this or that, which could happen in the future." This is an illusion. In other words, time, or the future, cannot free you from the little me and its unhappiness, its fear, and its sense that something vital is missing.

Interestingly, the mind structure operates in the same way for a so-called spiritual person as for a so-called materialistic person, since most so-called spiritual people carry their dysfunction into their spiritual work. They are spiritually unhappy, and they say, "one day I will be good enough at my meditation", or one day, "I will attain enlightenment." This approach is no different from the one which says, "I'm going to have 50 million dollars in the bank, and then I'll be somebody." Though seeing this dysfunction in your spiritual life may come as a shock, there is a way out, and that is to realize that the dysfunction of the human mind ceases to operate when the root of the dysfunction is removed. And that root is the mind's refusal, or unwillingness, to open itself up to this moment, to embrace life now, and say yes to what is. That would be the end of the egoic, even if it sounds impossibly simple -- just relinquish your warfare with life, because that is what constitutes the madness of the human mind. At that point it is in a state of warfare with life itself, because life is inseparable from the now, the present moment. Nothing is ever outside of now. Life and the now are one. But this mad, egoic state of consciousness believes it can win its fight -- I don't use the word God very much, because it is often misused, but the ego is in a state of warfare with God. It is a state of deep suffering.

Indeed, to talk about the end of suffering or the end of unhappiness is to speak in negative terms. It is more than just the end of unhappiness - it means entering a state of continuous deep peace, aliveness, a state where you are no longer trying to figure out how to hold your life together or control the future. You open yourself up to the power of the greater consciousness that lies beyond the limited human mind, which then can flow and live through you, and the intelligence that created the galaxies, the flowers, the blade of grass -- everything -- can then express itself fully through you. It is no longer restricted almost to zero by the madness of the little egoic entity, which is like a knot. When the human mind is no longer an egoic mind, it will be continuously inspired by that great intelligence, and will give form to all the insights, intuitions, realizations and creative ideas that arise from the deeper level within yourself. And the wonderful news is that this vast sanity and intelligence is to be found in every human being, no matter how mad they look from the outside. It cannot be destroyed, no matter how crazy humans become.

That's when your life suddenly flows with great ease, when it is no longer a struggle for survival against problems that seem to arise continuously. This goes wrong, that goes wrong . . . that's why Churchill defined history as "one damn thing after another." But the moment you say yes to what is, and fully embrace it, you become flooded with an intense aliveness. People often feel it in every cell of their body. Wow! It suddenly feels good to be alive, and what is happening, or not happening, is no longer important. I am that beautiful life that I can feel now. I am one with the aliveness and intelligence that lives in every cell of my being. And if I take action, the action will arise out of the deep sense of connectedness with being that occurs when I accept the now, and the action will be a hundred times more effective than action that arises out of my resistance to what is.

God is closer to you than hands and feet, it has been said, and it's true. Every flower is a celebration of the goodness of life. Look how it exists in its incredible beauty, open to the sky and the sun, like an act of worship. I've never found a flower that has a problem.

This is the simple truth and the simple transformation that all the great teachers talked about. Jesus said, take no thought of the morrow, the morrow will take care of itself. If you remove the baggage of misinterpretation and mind interpretation that has accumulated on top of the original teachings, you will see their simplicity, and what they are saying is, surrender to what is. Surrender to the now, and then watch life unfold through you. That is the end of suffering, the end of unhappiness. Accept whatever arises in this moment as if you had chosen it, and your whole life will be miraculously transformed.

http://bodhitree.com/lectures/tolle.html


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3259381 - 10/21/04 06:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So if you have come with expectations of learning new and fascinating things, you may be disappointed.
I will not be disappointed as I expect nothing from a self-proclaimed master.

Witness the great spiritual teachings and teachers and all the wonderful artistic creations - these have come from a far deeper place than the ordinary human mind.
It came from mind or it did not. What is deeper than an apple? That doesn't make sense.

Now, for the first time, this enlightenment is happening on a larger scale, not just to one person in ten million or less, as it did before.
Uh-huh. Tolle has polled the present and the past of all mankind using a new and improved "Enlight-o-meter".

In order to maintain its fictitious state of identity, the little me needs to be in a state of opposition, or warfare. It needs to have a boundary around itself, so it says, "This is me and this the other, which is not me." Then a strong sense of separation develops between the image of the little me and the rest of the universe, which becomes threatening.
Is this fictitious? OK, then I will eat a loaf of bread and see how much nutrition Master Tolle derives from it.

This is the indeed the very root of madness: it needs enemies.
Nice chasm-jump to go from separateness which is observable to "enemy" which is Tolle's interpretation.

You identify with it, and soon your whole sense of identity comes from it: "This is me, and I am a little person with a little past and a little future." So, an entity arises that is ultimately fictitious, a mental image of "little me," which is based on an underlying fear.
It is based on observation not fear.

It is so deeply internalized that most human beings are unaware that they are continually running away from "what is," to some mentally projected future.
Agriculture, irrigation, food storage, sanitation; etc. are "mental diseases" based on projecting the future.

And the little me says, "I will attain something in the future that will make me more complete, and more fulfilled. Instead of being a little me, I will become a big me. One day I'm going to make it!"
All animals are pre-programmed to go for more food, more territory, more power and generally more offspring and more mates. This "madness" is not self-created, but is inherent in life.

People believe that their unhappiness is due to the content of their lives, that they will be happy if they obtain certain things. This is the belief, but it's not true.
I would safely say those dying of starvation or watching their families being killed in attempted genocide could correctly link life situation with unhappines. I wish Tolle or a disciple would take the "Swami Happiness Challenge".

and the intelligence that created the galaxies, the flowers, the blade of grass -- everything
This same amazing intelligence created fucked-up human beings who are never satisfied and could not meditate their way out of a paper bag. As an engineer, I would consider this a major defect and would have gone back to the drawing board and not patted myself on the back as a brilliant designer.

Jesus said, take no thought of the morrow, the morrow will take care of itself.
If getting nailed to a cross is tomorrow taking care of itself...

Forget planning anything; just be a happy-go-lucky bum; it not then you MUST make plans to operate in normal society. The rent will NOT take care of itelf.

Every flower is a celebration of the goodness of life. Look how it exists in its incredible beauty, open to the sky and the sun, like an act of worship. I've never found a flower that has a problem.
Tolle has no dea what flowers do or do not experience. Lets look at the zebra getting chomped by the crocodile. See how it bleeds with incredible beauty while screaming in musical terror. I have never known a zebra to go in for psycho-analysis.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3259864 - 10/21/04 11:36 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Aside from Swami's criticism, Tolle's lecture is in my opinion all that needs to be said regarding spirituality. Truly, those few paragraphs represent the heart of the matter.

Although, I will concede one thing to the Swamster...I have never been a fan making absolute statements about the state of consciousness of other living things. But maybe Tolle has a point. Is not one of the characteristics present in humans more so than any other species our ability to conceptualize time? Maybe this conceptualization of time really IS the cause of our suffering.

Sure a Zebra will squeal in pain and terror as it's being chased, caught and devoured alive, but does it worry constantly about the pain and death that might occur sometime in the future...even when there is no present threat? It keeps a wary eye out for threats in the present. To say that a Zebra is plagued with constant worry would be to make a claim similar to Tolle's about flowers not having a problem.

I'm sure that Tolle himself would admit that he would scream in musical terror while being chomped by a crocodile, just as Jesus probably screamed in pain as he was nailed to the cross, just as Guatama probably moaned in agony as he died of food poisoning...these are the natural responses to what is happening in the present moment.

Ha ha ha...I just thought of something that screws up my whole argument. Jesus 'wept blood' at the thought of his impending crucifixion. Oh well - so much for historical precedent. But in my own defense, I think the whole crucifixion timeline is an alegory to the experience of being 'born again'. The 'resurected' Jesus represents man in the 'enlightened' state, the crucifixion represents ego death, and the garden scene represents the terror the ego feels at the prospect of its own annhiliation.

So, back to my point. Perhaps there is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is what we feel as a direct consequence of an occurence in the present moment and suffering is what we experience when we fight pain or worry about future pain.

Sorry for rambling.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Source]
    #3259963 - 10/21/04 12:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Tolle's lecture is in my opinion all that needs to be said regarding spirituality.
OK, we can shut the forum down now. Case solved.

Is not one of the characteristics present in humans more so than any other species our ability to conceptualize time?
Conjecture.

To say that a Zebra is plagued with constant worry would be to make a claim similar to Tolle's about flowers not having a problem.
Strawman. Never mentioned zebras worrying, only that life is hardly all light & beauty.

I'm sure that Tolle himself would admit that he would scream in musical terror while being chomped by a crocodile, just as Jesus probably screamed in pain as he was nailed to the cross, just as Guatama probably moaned in agony as he died of food poisoning...these are the natural responses to what is happening in the present moment.
Unenlightened man: screams in pain.
Enlightened man: screams in pain.
*Swami fails to see the difference*

Ha ha ha...I just thought of something that screws up my whole argument. Jesus 'wept blood' at the thought of his impending crucifixion. Oh well - so much for historical precedent.
Good call.

But in my own defense, I think the whole crucifixion timeline is an alegory to the experience of being 'born again'.
Now you are deep into apology territory and are sounding like a politician.


--------------------



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OfflineSource
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3260610 - 10/21/04 04:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"OK, we can shut the forum down now. Case solved."

Seriously, I think it really says it all. If anything else needs to be said it's to provide support and encouragement along this path...but that's just me.

"Conjecture."

Yeah, that's why I formed the statement as a question. But, it may be possible to verify that other species fail to conceptualize time to the degree that we do based on their apparent lack of planning far into the future. Or maybe they can conceptualize time but do not possess the required intelligence to plan for it. I don't know. As you said 'conjecture'.

"Strawman. Never mentioned zebras worrying, only that life is hardly all light & beauty."

I was trying to point out that what I think Tolle is getting at is not that there isn't pain and horror in the universe when it is present, but that there doesn't need to be suffering at the prospect of future pain and terror. There is pain, but there doesn't have to be suffering. Pain is only a sensation on the same scale as pleasure...but at the opposite end. Suffering is caused by our inability to accept the current sensation or our desire to move to a new one (aversion and desire).

Although, at great expense to my argument, I'm certain even Guatama changed positions on his seat if his ass was getting sore. To be honest, I've always been perplexed by the paradox of 'acceptance and action'.

Attending a seshin once, I forced myself to sit and experience excruciating pain in my legs, back and neck for hours and hours. It became crystal clear to me that there is a difference between pain and suffering (or whatever words you want to use). Being a Zen seshin, there is no repositioning (of course I could have just given up, but hey my spiritual ego is just to big for that...ha ha).

At first, my mind was screaming, "My God! There is no way I can go on experiencing this pain! How much longer is this sitting period going to last?! Where's the bell! It feels like an eternity! I don't think I can do it much longer! Ahhhhh! It hurts! It hurts! How much longer!?"

But then I realized that I didn't need to do that. No matter how much I rebeled against the very unpleasant sensation it wouldn't go away. So I stopped and just gave myself to the pain. It still hurt just as bad but I could now see it more clearly. It's a sensation, that's all. A piercing, sharp sensation. I was still having the physiological reactions to the pain, like sweating, clenching my jaw and breathing funny...these are natural reactions to pain stimulus. If it had been worse I might even have screamed, but I was no longer SUFFERING.

And the suffering was worse than the pain. I can't really explain how or why, but it just was.

"Unenlightened man: screams in pain.
Enlightened man: screams in pain.
*Swami fails to see the difference*"

Please see above.

"Now you are deep into apology territory and are sounding like a politician."

Well, I can understand why you would say that. But I have seen the crucifixion story in that very light for a long time now, so I'm not just pulling stuff out of the air on the spot. I really do think that it is an allegory of the transition from 'fallen' to 'redeemed' or 'unenlightened' to 'enlightened'.


--------------------
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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3260995 - 10/21/04 05:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Another beautifull post skorpivo, thanks!

One thing i wonder about 'ego is a state of warfare with god'

my first impulse is to say, thats so true, because God, the eternal dreamer, is creating this infinite beautifull borderless dream, and we humans chop it up into tiny little fragments and say 'this is what is! this is reality!' thus taking so much out of what god has made for us. And yet, each of us, ego and all, are part of the universal dreamer's dream. So in that sense we are not at war with god , only ourselves, when we are enslaved by ego. Nothing we do can ever damage or defile gods dream, all we do is limit and restrict our own, creating misery and want.


refering to coming from a place deeper than mind:

"It came from mind or it did not. What is deeper than an apple? That doesn't make sense. '

your mistake is in using the apple as a metaphor for mind. Instead, lets use a different plant, the onion. An onion is a whole, but it is composed of many many layers. So is mind. The mind has many components, some we can call 'deeper' than the others, metaphorically. One can say that the deepest insights of man, such as artisitic and religious revelation, although still coming from the onion, come from a place so deep and different from the surface that you could almost call it a different thing or place entirely.


"Uh-huh. Tolle has polled the present and the past of all mankind using a new and improved "Enlight-o-meter".

i agree that we should be skeptical about the proposed increase in enlightenment. It is my experience that your reality is what you make it, by way of your prejudices, expectations and preferences. In this way, by simply choosing where to look and what to look for, i could say with equal assurance that we are entering an age of unprecedented evolution and enlightenment, or that we are entering an age of unprecedented violence, short sightedness, sloth and greed.

The truth is, as with ALL things, that it is Neither A nor B, yet also both.



"Is this fictitious? OK, then I will eat a loaf of bread and see how much nutrition Master Tolle derives from it. "

the seperation of reality into self and not self is indeed ficticious, and your belief that physical nutrition defines self simply shows that you are deep in the grasp of that illusion.


"Nice chasm-jump to go from separateness which is observable to "enemy" which is Tolle's interpretation. "

as i understand it, he is simply pointing out that the root cause of all perception of enemies and threats has its root in the initial, false division of reality into me and not me. When we are returned to the awareness of the unity of all things, how can anything be our enemy?



"Agriculture, irrigation, food storage, sanitation; etc. are "mental diseases" based on projecting the future. "

as always, it is a matter of balance. It is true that planning for the future has undeniable benefits. However, so does living in the moment. The key to a happy life is balance, balance in all things. If you spend your entire life hurriedly planning for tommorow, for the next day, the next year, the next plan, the next move, the next paycheck, you will arrive at the end of the line and say to yourself 'where was I when my life was passing me by?"


"All animals are pre-programmed to go for more food, more territory, more power and generally more offspring and more mates. This "madness" is not self-created, but is inherent in life. "

sometimes are physiological and genetic programming becomes obsolete or maladaptive to our current situation. That is why it is such a tremendous gift that we humans have in being able to conciously override hormonal, genetic tendencies (this is demonstrated by numerous individuals who can conciously control autonomic and hormonal processes such as pain, stress, anger, fear, heatbeat, respiration, digestion etc etc etc)

for example, when someone angers me through taunting or insult or whatever, the hormonal part of me flushes with anger, it says STRIKE! but as a human, i am more than the hormonal reaction, and thus i can choose weather or not to gratify it. To live like animals in human society is no longer productive. Seeking more food, more territory, more mates, will not bring lasting satisfaction, nor are we slaves to those impulses, unless we allow ourselves to be.




"I would safely say those dying of starvation or watching their families being killed in attempted genocide could correctly link life situation with unhappines. I wish Tolle or a disciple would take the "Swami Happiness Challenge".

it is true that situations of life will impact our happiness, the way we are currently programmed, and that programming is deep and hard to shake off. The more intense the outside stimulus , the more intense the internal emotional reaction. But the amazing fact is, it is possible, though undoubtedly very difficult, to seperate internal happiness from external conditions.

Even in a 4 foot buy four foot cell of dank grey stone, the human mind can quest for and achieve incredible states of bliss and transcendent perception.



"Forget planning anything; just be a happy-go-lucky bum"

this is indeed a viable life option, although your choice of the word bum is indicative of your social conditioning. Other, less materialistic cultures call these people monks, priests, holy men, ascetics, etc. And some of them are very happy indeed, planning nothing , striving for nothing save internal balance.

"it not then you MUST make plans to operate in normal society. The rent will NOT take care of itelf. "

if you want to do this, you must do that. If you dont want to do this, then you dont have to do that. Thats the key here. The essence of taoist philosophy is to remove the illusory impulse to free yourself of the subsuquent enslavement to obligation.


" Lets look at the zebra getting chomped by the crocodile. See how it bleeds with incredible beauty while screaming in musical terror. "

both the blossoming flower and the screaming zebra are equally reflective of the supreme beauty, harmony and balance of life. Life and death, death and rebirth, spring and winter, light and dark, all part of the same eternal, harmonious cycle. One can never exist without the other, hence the beauty in both.

The yin yang symbol is indeed a perfect and enlightening thing to meditate on. The dark contains light, waiting to burst forth and wash away the darkness. The pain of the zebras death leads to the joy of the lion cubs birth. The rest of sleep leads to the energy of waking. The suffering of thirst makes possible the joy of drink. The exhalation of breath makes room for the inhalation. The setting of the sun makes possible the sunrise.

This is the ESSENCE of lifes beauty.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3261316 - 10/21/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

for example, when someone angers me through taunting or insult or whatever
No one "angers you"; you choose anger as a reaction to a stimulus.

When we are returned to the awareness of the unity of all things, how can anything be our enemy?
How can you be angry with another if you realize "we are not separate". Oh wait! I get it. You do NOT realize that we are all one, that is just a spiritual myth that you would LIKE to be true.

It is true that planning for the future has undeniable benefits.
Exactly. So NOT living in the NOW is hardly a disease then is it?

and your belief that physical nutrition defines self simply shows that you are deep in the grasp of that illusion.
And Tolle's continued grumbling, empty belly and hunger pains would be a clear indicator that he is also under the same illusion.

this is indeed a viable life option, although your choice of the word bum is indicative of your social conditioning.
No, the word "bum" is indicative of lexicographic knowledge:

(Webster) bum: one who seeks to live solely by the support of others

Other, less materialistic cultures call these people monks, priests, holy men, ascetics, etc. And some of them are very happy indeed, planning nothing , striving for nothing save internal balance.
Lets' extraoplate this out and have ALL of society take this position and see where that leads.

both the blossoming flower and the screaming zebra are equally reflective of the supreme beauty, harmony and balance of life. Life and death, death and rebirth, spring and winter, light and dark, all part of the same eternal, harmonious cycle. One can never exist without the other, hence the beauty in both.
Mere words can provoke an anger response in you, yet if a loved one was being tortured and killed you could see the beauty in that? NO WAY BRO! How can you promote an esoteric view that you, yourself could not ascribe to, except when contemplating in your warm, safe living room?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Source]
    #3261323 - 10/21/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Seriously, I think it really says it all. If anything else needs to be said it's to provide support and encouragement along this path...but that's just me.

So it doesn't say it ALL then if more needs to be said.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3261383 - 10/21/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You..you...nitpicker you!  :smirk:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3261419 - 10/21/04 07:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"No one "angers you"; you choose anger as a reaction to a stimulus."

agreed, and thats more or less what i was trying to say. Just as i am not forced by any 'preprogramming' to spend my life in search of food mates and territory, i am also not forced to become angry. we agree on this.


"You do NOT realize that we are all one, that is just a spiritual myth that you would LIKE to be true."

well ok i cant argue with that, because its not a fact or a logical argument, just a statement of oppinion. When i say i realize something i mean i come to believe it, weather that be realizing that gravity exists or realizing the essential unity of all things. Maybe im wrong, but i could use your same form of argument to attack any statement whatsoever, except that that would be poor debate etiquette.

"It is true that planning for the future has undeniable benefits.
Exactly. So NOT living in the NOW is hardly a disease then is it?'

i didnt say it was. I simply tried to explain a beneficial application of truth that i derive from what was being said, namely that being caught up entirely in planning for the future can lead to missing out on so much of the good things in life.


"And Tolle's continued grumbling, empty belly and hunger pains would be a clear indicator that he is also under the same illusion."

if tolle did not eat, his physical body would die. This says nothing about my statement that the idea that "we are" our physical body is an illusion.


"No, the word "bum" is indicative of lexicographic knowledge:

(Webster) bum: one who seeks to live solely by the support of others'

exactly. Websters dictionary is the source you have chosen to use to define words based on the conditioning of the society you were born in. In other countries people who eschew material values and live contemplative lives entirely off the support of others are known as monks, priests, ascetics, holy men, etc. The inherently negative connotation of BUM is not present in many other cultures.


"Lets' extraoplate this out and have ALL of society take this position and see where that leads."

it would lead to the end of society as we know it. The same thing could be said of any way of life. If ALL of soceity became carpenters, society would collapse. if ALL of soceity became politicians, society would collapse. If ALL of society became plumbers, fisherman, architects, or mathematicians, society would collapse.

Your point is?


"Mere words can provoke an anger response in you, yet if a loved one was being tortured and killed you could see the beauty in that? NO WAY BRO! How can you promote an esoteric view that you, yourself could not ascribe to, except when contemplating in your warm, safe living room? "

like i said, the stimulus/response function is deeply programmed and difficult to shake off entirely, However, i know that it can be done, because in my own life i have done it in smaller aspects, such as doing away with negative, unescesary emotional reactions. Its simply a matter of degree. The same function of mind that can lead me to stop feeling anger over something when it does not benefit me can be used to stop me feeling anger over anything. It would take incredible time and dedication, but it could be done.

And besides you are missing my point entirely, What i am speaking of is the fact that life is by its definition, relative and polar, everything has an opposite and everything is defined in RELATION to its opposite. This is the meaning of the yin yang symbol where everything contains the seed of its opposite.

Evil contains the seed of good, life contains the seed of death, vice versa and etc.

Like it or not, the world contains both positive and negatives, and realize it or not, that is what makes the world so amazing.

Were it not for opposites , for diversity, life would not exist. It would be like a painting done in one shade.

now., to clarify, if a member of my family were tortured i would almost undoubtedly feel rage pain and grief. That does not change my fundamental belief in the nescessity and purpose of all shades and tones of human/life experience.

Its kind of like any fundamental belief. You can learn about and come to believe in things like the infinite size of the universe, or the functional laws of abstract mathematics, but that doesnt nescessarily mean that you can always percieve them in your own life. That is because this kind of wisdom is TRANSCENDENT wisdom, wisdom that transcends the limits of our temporal incarnations in the physical plain.

This might sound like new age mumbo jumbo, but all i am really saying is that one of the wonders of the human mind is its ability to comprehend and understand things that are bigger than itself beyond its own experience.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Source]
    #3261423 - 10/21/04 07:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

*shrugs* It's in my job description.  :cool:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3261445 - 10/21/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Unenlightened man: screams in pain.
Enlightened man: screams in pain."

interestingly, this isnt always true. I mean it depends on how you define 'enlightend' but i saw a study where they took a trained monk ("enlightend") and a seriers of lay people, hooked them up to physiological readers, and put them through a variety of ordeals, such as being hurt in various ways, having limbs sumberged in icy cold water, etc.

Not only did the 'enlightend' monk not scream in pain like the unenlightend person did, according to the physiological sensors, he wasnt even in any pain, despite the fact that he went through the exact same ordeal.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3261471 - 10/21/04 07:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Witness the great spiritual teachings and teachers and all the wonderful artistic creations - these have come from a far deeper place than the ordinary human mind.
It came from mind or it did not. What is deeper than an apple? That doesn't make sense.

I've covered this before, and in the words of Eckhart Tolle:
Creativity, love, inner peace and joy arise from beyond the mind. They are the natural states of Being, which is your very innermost essential essence. You will feel a subtle emanation of joy arising from deep within in your most internally peaceful and enlightened state: the joy of Being.
When you do use your mind, and particularly when a creative solution is needed, you oscillate every few minutes or so between thought and stillness, between mind and no-mind. No-mind is consciousness without thought. Only in that way is it possible to think creatively, because only in that way does thought have any real power. Thought alone, when it is no longer connected with the much vaster realm of consciousness, quickly becomes barren, insane, destructive.

The mind is essentially a survival machine. Attack and defense against other minds, gathering, storing, and analyzing information ? this is what it is good at, but it is not at all creative. All true artists, whether they know it or not, create from a place of no-mind, from inner stillness. The mind then gives form to the creative impulse or insight. Even the great scientists have reported that their creative breakthroughs came at a time of mental quietude. The surprising result of a nation-wide inquiry among America?s most eminent mathematicians, including Einstein, to find out their working methods, was that thinking ?plays only a subordinate part in the brief, decisive phase of the creative act of itself.? So I would say that the simple reason why the majority of scientists are not creative is not because they don?t know how to think but because they don?t know how to stop thinking!

Perhaps you would prefer a more psychological/scientific point of view on this?
I've also contributed a piece by Dr. Abraham Maslow on this subject:

I would like to expand on this by what I've read in the material demonstrated by in some researches of a psychologist by the name of Anne Roe, who finds it in group after group of well-known people ? of capable, fruitful, functional, famous people. For instance, in one research she studied all the starred biologists in the American Men of Science. In another research she was able to study every paleontologist in the country. She was able to demonstrate a very peculiar paradox that we'll have to deal with, namely, to that certain degree, many good scientists are what the psychopathologist or the therapist would call rather rigid people, rather constricted people, people who are afraid of their unconscious, in the sense that I have mentioned. And you may then come to the conclusion that I've come to. Science can be defined, if you want to, as a technique whereby uncreative people can create and discover, by working along with alot of other people, by standing upon the shoulders of people who have come before them, by being cautious and careful and so on. Now, that I'll call secondary creativeness.
I think, however, that I can lay bare the primary creativeness which comes out of the unconscious and which I have found in the specially creative people that I've personally known and others as well. This primary creativeness is very probably a heritage of every human being. It is a common and universal kind of thing. Certainly it is found in all healthy children. It is the kind of creativeness that any healthy child had and which is then lost by most people as they grow up. It is universal in another sense, that if you dig in a psychotherapeutic way, i.e., if you dig into the unconscious layers of the person, you find it there. I shall give you only one example that you have probably all experienced yourselves. You know that in our dreams, we can be an awful lot more creative than we are in waking life. We can be more clever, and wittier, and bolder, and more original, and so on and so on. With the lid taken off, we find generally more creativeness than appears to the naked eye. Abraham Maslow involved himself in this study and predicated that the universal conclusion of psychoanalysts, and I am sure of all other psychotherapists as well, is that psychotherapy, or getting down to these deeper layers which are ordinarily repressed, will release a common heritage ? something that we all have had ? and that was lost and or obscured by the mind/ego...and so on.

The comparison to the mind and an apple.. :lol:. If you are thinking of the mind as merely the brain, then no, that is not what is being referred to here, the brain is the physical facility of the mind and consciousness. But the mind is NOT consciousness. Thinking and consciousness is NOT synonymous. The mind is merely a tool OF consciousness.
Perhaps it would best for you to use the term subconsciousness when we are referring to what is beyond the ordinary mind, since that would be the most scientific way to put it. Either way, it doesn't matter which term is used, since both can lead to, at the very least, similar understandings.

Now, for the first time, this enlightenment is happening on a larger scale, not just to one person in ten million or less, as it did before.
Uh-huh. Tolle has polled the present and the past of all mankind using a new and improved "Enlight-o-meter".

Hmm.. It sounds like you may be very doubtful of the psychospiritual evolutionary progress in humanity.. is this so? And if so, perhaps you would like to share with us how you've come to this conclusion, including the new and improved "Swami-o-meter"? :tongue:

Is this fictitious? OK, then I will eat a loaf of bread and see how much nutrition Master Tolle derives from it.

The egoic self is indeed an illusionary sense of self.

Agriculture, irrigation, food storage, sanitation; etc. are "mental diseases" based on projecting the future.

Eckhart Tolle is referring to the compulsive and dysfunctional [yet ?normal?] way of living ? completely through memory of the past and anticipation of the future.
Using clock-time [as opposed to psychological-emotional time], for practical purposes, such as planting soybeans for future use/consumption is one thing?Furthermore, such planning takes place IN the Now, not in the past nor future. Obsessively thinking about past and future, and living in half to complete blindness of what there truly is ? the Now, is the mental disease which is being referred to here.

I would safely say those dying of starvation or watching their families being killed in attempted genocide could correctly link life situation with unhappines. I wish Tolle or a disciple would take the "Swami Happiness Challenge".

No. Ultimately, all suffering and unhappiness arises not from the circumstances of your life but from the conditioning of your mind.

This same amazing intelligence created fucked-up human beings who are never satisfied and could not meditate their way out of a paper bag.

I see. And you believe that there are people who were created and BORN as ?fucked-up human beings who are never satisfied and could not meditate their way out of a paper bag.? ?

If getting nailed to a cross is tomorrow taking care of itself...

Forget planning anything; just be a happy-go-lucky bum; it not then you MUST make plans to operate in normal society. The rent will NOT take care of itelf.


Once again, the practical use of clock-time, whether past or future related, is NOT what is being referred to here. It is the obsessive and compulsive thinking of past and future which stems from identification with the mind. Yes, do NOT obsess with what is going to happen in the morrow; i.e., ?When this happens or when I do this or that, then I will be happy/content/satisfied.? No, the only time you can ever have true content and peace is Here-Now.



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3261493 - 10/21/04 07:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

he wasnt even in any pain, despite the fact that he went through the exact same ordeal.

So we should try to desensitize ourselves?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3261511 - 10/21/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Uh-huh. Tolle has polled the present and the past of all mankind using a new and improved "Enlight-o-meter".

Hmm.. It sounds like you may be very doubtful of the psychospiritual evolutionary progress in humanity.. is this so? And if so, perhaps you would like to share with us how you've come to this conclusion, including the new and improved "Swami-o-meter"?

I come to no conclusion without evidence, that is the point. This is not deep and does not take years of study to comprehend.

Why should I take his word on the 1 in a million statistic? Why should you?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Swami]
    #3261527 - 10/21/04 07:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"No. Ultimately, all suffering and unhappiness arises not from the circumstances of your life but from the conditioning of your mind."

exactly, and swami affirms this himself when he says "No one "angers you"; you choose anger as a reaction to a stimulus."

FLIP FLOPPER! .... j/k


(he wasnt even in any pain, despite the fact that he went through the exact same ordeal. )

"So we should try to desensitize ourselves? "

um, no. It simply shows that the will power and concious control of a disciplined human mind can absolutely over ride any external stimulus, and is an example of how the 'swami's happiness challenge' has really already been passed by individuals who have sucessfully overcome the programmed stimulus/reaction functioning and replaced it with concious control over how and when they will respond, emotionally or physiologically, to external stimulus.


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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3261887 - 10/21/04 09:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:smile: :thumbup:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: deff]
    #3262095 - 10/21/04 10:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe this conceptualization of time really IS the cause of our suffering.


This is precisely one of the major points that Tolle explains; the insanity of psychological time. Once it is fully realized that time is an illusion, it can cut like a sword through all the mind-created layers of complexity and ?problems.? Let me say it again: the present moment is all you ever have. There is never a time when your life is not ?this moment.? Is this not a fact?

You will not have any doubt that psychological time is a mental disease if you look at its collective manifestations. They occur, for example, in the form of ideologies such as communism, national socialism or any nationalism, or rigid religious belief systems, which operate under the implicit assumption that the highest good lies in the future and that therefore the end justifies the means. The end is an idea, a point in the mind-projected future, when salvation in whatever form ? happiness, fulfillment, equality, liberation, and so on ? will be attained. Not infrequently, the means of getting there are the enslavement, torture, and murder of people in the present.

For example, it is estimated that as many as 50 million people were murdered to further the cause of communism, to bring about a ?better world? in Russia, China, and other countries. This is a chilling example of how belief in a future heaven creates a present hell. Can there be any doubt that psychological time is a serious and dangerous mental illness?

How does this mind pattern operate in your life? Are you always trying to get somewhere other than where you are? Is most of your doing just a means to an end? Is fulfillment always just around the corner or confined to short-lived pleasures, such as sex, food, drink, drugs, or thrills and excitement? Are you always focused on becoming, achieving, and attaining, or alternatively chasing some new thrill or pleasure? Do you believe that if you acquire more things you will become more fulfilled, good enough, or psychologically complete? Are you waiting for a man or a woman to give meaning to your life?

In the normal, mind-identified or unenlightened state of consciousness, the power and infinite creative potential that lie concealed in the Now are completely obscured by psychological time. Your life then loses its vibrancy, its freshness, its sense of wonder. The old patterns of thought, emotion, behavior, reaction, and desire are acted out in endless repeat performances, a script in your mind that gives you an identity of sorts but distorts or covers up the reality of the Now. The mind then creates an obsession with the future as an escape from the unsatisfactory present.

This is why Eckhart Tolle pointed to the flower, rooted ever so deeply in presence, in the Here-Now?
Of course the Zebra being chomped by the hungry alligator will naturally scream in musical horrors.. This is normal, and natural. But aside from the natural part of death in the Zebra's life, does it go through life with time/mind created negativity and problems and such insanity that humans create for themselves?

Deeply appreciate the comments by everybody here, including Moonshoe. :thumbup:

By the way Swami, I'm curious.. Aside from your conflictions with the lecture from ET, can you point out anything that you can advocate and support? Anything positive and constructive you can think of? Thanks. =)



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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3262192 - 10/21/04 10:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Strange-looking man, this Eckhart Tolle, yet his model of the 'pain body' is quite useful therapeutically. His The Power of Now is really a kind of late 20th century BE HERE NOW without the psychedelic bells and whistles, but I found it to be a remarkable book. I listened to it on my Lady's cassettes as well which she usually has rattling around in her car's tape player. I think the man (who is quite articulate in English, though German, and exceptionally bright) did indeed have a notable Experience in Cosmic Consciousness. We are not cultists of his, and will not pay exorbitant fees to listen to him speak (his first book really says it all), but it is refreshing to hear another style of delivery of 'The Perennial Philosophy.' The Power of Now has finally come out in soft cover and is definately worth reading.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Tolle Lecture [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3262230 - 10/21/04 10:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Is fulfillment always just around the corner or confined to short-lived pleasures, such as sex, food, drink, drugs, or thrills and excitement? Are you always focused on becoming, achieving, and attaining, or alternatively chasing some new thrill or pleasure? "

to stop with the debating and such for a moment and actually apply this to myself, i can say Yes. Yes it is. I basically divide my life into 2 segments, indulgence and discipline.

The indulgence section includes all those things i look forward to as a reward for my hard work. This is mainly drugs, various drugs and drug-situations. Marijuana, alcohol, ecstasy, cocaine, mushrooms...

these are things i look forward to and see as the main ways in which i achieve pure, unadulterated 'fun' a prime source of 'satisfaction' for me

the other half of my life is discipline. This involves all the things i 'work towards' for future benefits. This includes working out for future gains in strength and appearance, going to school, working at assignments, for the future reward of good marks and whatever may or may not go along with that. It includes working for money, for the future goals of travel, new clothes, new drugs. wierdly enough, id say my graffiti habit falls more into this category than the indulgence category. Its like work, something i must do for self esteem purposes. there is some fun involved but.... anyways i degress im still trying to make sense of this wierd pathological behaviour.

the amount of time i spend conciously trying to be 'in the moment'?

zero. More or less. Maybe for periods of a few seconds at a time, for the purposes of reality checks (also for the future attainment of lucid dreams)

so although i agree whole heartedly with everything youve said, or posted, i have yet to integrate it into my own life to any meaningfull extent. At my cabin, as with all good things, i do better, i spend more time enraptured with the present moment, the solitude, the beauty, the quiet. But in the city, its all routines, goals, partying, and daydreaming/fantasy

:frown: :blush:


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