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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: tekramrepus]
    #3264569 - 10/22/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at when I said '...whether Bush or Kerry wins is not going to change that'.

There is no political solution because politics itself is part of the system. The only way is for enough people to wake up.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3265543 - 10/22/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Politics is the art or science of governing. Governing is all about conflict resolution. This includes preventing me from taking your possessions or enslaving you. At it's core that is ALL of what it's about. Without the demon "politics" there would be no order. You would be my slave. Or someone like me. You may have some complaints about the current order, but the one you and I have to deal with is far better than any there has been before. And it exists because of our current system of politics. Without the safety blanket of an orderly society we would have an average lifespan of at best 40years and live brutish, fearful lives. You can work to make it more to your liking but to fucking whine on the internet using a computer you can't build, over wires you probably barely understand with electricity generated somehow mysticly to you from rocks or oil you don't know how to extract in a house you can't build eating food you can't grow and wearing clothes you can't make that the current system sucks is STUPID. I love people who can barely clean their own behinds telling us how we fucked up and how they'll do better. There's a reason why there are no more hippy communes and it isn't because they were driven out by the system.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3266233 - 10/22/04 10:19 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

zappa...I'll have to get back to you on this. I don't have enough time right now to write a propper response. I understand what you contention is and I will try to give it due consideration.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3270160 - 10/24/04 01:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Politics is the art or science of governing. Governing is all about conflict resolution. This includes preventing me from taking your possessions or enslaving you. At it's core that is ALL of what it's about. Without the demon "politics" there would be no order. You would be my slave. Or someone like me. You may have some complaints about the current order, but the one you and I have to deal with is far better than any there has been before. And it exists because of our current system of politics. Without the safety blanket of an orderly society we would have an average lifespan of at best 40years and live brutish, fearful lives.




So your main point is that without our government holding things together all hell would break loose. The animal nauture of man which was hitherto only held in check by the threat of punishment by the government will emerge...hungry and lusting for mayhem. Your neighbor, whom before seemed like a perfectly decent guy, will break into your home, eat all your food, beat your dog, rape your wife and split your head with an axe. No one will deliver the mail...no one will write books...no one will ever invent another thing again...we will forget all we learned about how to take care of ourselves...the lights will go out...we will become like little orphaned children. Is that it?

I can assure you, I would not be YOUR slave. In fact you are the slave, right now. You are enslaved to the idea that you need the government to protect you. This is exactly what they want you to believe. In fact, the entire world is enslaved. We, living in the industrialed nations, are the slave consumers, enslaved to constantly seek happiness through consumption. The third world, living in poverty by means of forced Socioeconomic underdevelopement, are the slave producers, enslaved by poverty to toil away thier lives for a pitence creating the shit the consumers buy. They, those that hold the keys, are those whom reap the profits.

Is this the best we can do? How much longer do you think the earth can sustain such a system? How many more people must suffer and die under this system?

In fact, I am not necessarily opposed to some form of governance. what I am opposed to is being governed by those who have the most to gain by keeping the earth locked in perpetual war, poverty and madness. Are you telling me I should be happy with this because, it 'is far better than any there has been before'?

Do you think people are not living 'brutish, fear filled lives' right now? How fucked up is it that I had to grow up during the cold war waiting for 'the Evil Empire' to vaporize me at any minute in a flash of light? How fucked up is it that my children now have to grow up waiting for 'Evil terrorists supported by the Axis of Evil' to do the same? THIS is a brutish, fear filled life. It's ALL about the fear and right now fear is epidemic.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You can work to make it more to your liking but to fucking whine on the internet using a computer you can't build, over wires you probably barely understand with electricity generated somehow mysticly to you from rocks or oil you don't know how to extract in a house you can't build eating food you can't grow and wearing clothes you can't make that the current system sucks is STUPID. I love people who can barely clean their own behinds telling us how we fucked up and how they'll do better. There's a reason why there are no more hippy communes and it isn't because they were driven out by the system.




If it wasn't for the system I'm bashing we would be living on Mars right now. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that we could have invented the means to travel and colonize beyond our solar system. There are those who say that the 'defense' industry is behind much of the scientific progress we have made. I would say that we have made some progress despite the defense industry. Do you realize how much of our scientific brainpower is wrapped up in figuring out how to destroy more efficiently? Half the money that is stolen from me each year goes to the manufacture, maintainence and delivery systems of weapons with the sole purpose of destroying life and property. This, while millions starve, schools crumble, the elderly rot, our planet dies. This is simple insanity. Were we to focus this talent and these resources on the betterment of all mankind we could make life on earth utpoia.

'Yeah, but we have ENEMIES who want to kill us. Without our military advantage THEY would sweep over our borders and kill us all! Save me big brother, save me from my fellow man!'

The enemies are deliberately created to keep the machine of war moving and the profits flowing. There is far too much money to be made by war for there ever to be peace. The last thing our government (the world government) wants is a utpoia. Happy people are not good consumers. Do you really think the government is working for us?

Again I'll say it...How can we live in peace and happiness so long as those who control us prosper from war and misery?

P.S. If you disagree with me just make your case. Insinuating that I'm a whiney, stupid hippy who can't wipe his own ass (to paraphrase) does nothing for your argument. I am open to discussion as I am open to the possibility that I may be completely wrong but I am not open to being insulted.


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3271223 - 10/24/04 11:45 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source, this current world system has been in place for actually about 2,200 years, right around there.

Much of the power has been passed down through family, and organized means.....there has been an Order established on this planet for a very long time (like I said, about 2,200 years).

It goes beyond american politics, but yes....american politics is within this Order.





You are looking for things to change, it will not happen with politics. Jesus knew this, and thats why when the zealots tried to get him to fight with them to take down the Roman empire, he simply said "My hour has not yet come" and told them thats not his purpose here on earth.



If you really want the system to change, it will have to happen on its own. Not through revolution, or destruction....but through two major effects.

1) People will wake up
2) The system is destructive in its greed/power/control desire. It will self-destroy after a few thousand years. (we are in the final years)






i agree...
i don't think you can actualy impose change on such a big scale without all the systems and persons ready for such change...
i do think though that something VERY radical would have to happen ANYWAY to get rid of the old and make clear we need something new!


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Edited by simisu (10/24/04 11:56 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3272267 - 10/24/04 05:02 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Please provide one example of a scientific advance produced by an anarchist society. And maybe it won't be the guy next door who enslaves you but it will be somebody who comes along and they always do. "If we don't hang together we will surely hang alone." "Good people sleep secure in their beds because rough men stand ready to do violence to protect them" (or something like that). I think you are absolutely insane to think that government, which is a system by which people cooperate for their mutual benefit, is an impediment to scientific advancement. Please provide a link to anyone not insane who believes there would be greater scientific advancement without government. I will read it.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3273196 - 10/24/04 09:14 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I said, 'if it wasn't for the system I'm bashing we would be on Mars right now', the system being the current world system. I'm sorry if I wansn't clear on that...although I think I was. You are making this into a 'if it's not THIS system it's going to be NO system' kind of thing.

Clearly I stated that I wansn't against government per se, I am against the current world government which (again) is run by those that profit from what is not in mankinds best interest.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of people that would do me harm exist BECAUSE of the system you are saying I need to protect me. Ironic isn't it?

I think you are wrong to think that our current government 'is a system by which people cooperate for thier mutual benefit'. There is more than ample evidence that our current government exists to benefit the few at the expense of the many. If our government were the way you make it sound I would have absolutely no problem with it. It is exactly the kind of government you describe that I am saying we need. I find it curious that you believe we already have such a government. On the outside the United States government tries to appear to be such, but it doesn't take much research to discover that it really isn't this way at all.

But I am not concerned solely with the United States government. The system that truly runs things is beyond regional governance.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Simisu]
    #3273202 - 10/24/04 09:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I agree.

And it all has to start with people waking up.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3299746 - 10/31/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It's your turn Zappa.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3300661 - 10/31/04 09:00 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
I said, 'if it wasn't for the system I'm bashing we would be on Mars right now', the system being the current world system. I'm sorry if I wansn't clear on that...although I think I was. You are making this into a 'if it's not THIS system it's going to be NO system' kind of thing.
What system would you propose? Be specific please in your construction of it. Try not to succumb to the easy way out of describing your system by what it is not
Clearly I stated that I wansn't against government per se, I am against the current world government which (again) is run by those that profit from what is not in mankinds best interest.
What world government???? There is no such thing. There is a collection of several hundred states. Within each of these states there are varying numbers and degrees of disparate interests. The individuals within these states may be squelched in their opportunities to achive their interests to varying degrees. "Mankind" does not have interests. Individuals do, and they often conflict. You are anthropomorphizing an abstract concept and giving it attributes that should only be applied to real people, like desires and fears and interests. Further, you cannot say what any other persons interests are, only they themselves can.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of people that would do me harm exist BECAUSE of the system you are saying I need to protect me. Ironic isn't it?
You can certainly have this opinion but you would be wrong. For as long as there have been humans, there have been those who would dominate and control others. A simple and contemporary example of this is organized crime figures that extort money from businesses, demanding a portion of their revenues in order to insure that these same individuals do not burn down their business or break their legs or worse. I have worked on several construction projects in NYC where there were these "coalitions" that went around and demanded that we pay one of their flunkies for a no work job. One guy just sat in a chair all day. Unfortunately for him, a rival coalition came by and sprayed the street and he got some boo-boos.
I think you are wrong to think that our current government 'is a system by which people cooperate for thier mutual benefit'. There is more than ample evidence that our current government exists to benefit the few at the expense of the many. If our government were the way you make it sound I would have absolutely no problem with it. It is exactly the kind of government you describe that I am saying we need. I find it curious that you believe we already have such a government. On the outside the United States government tries to appear to be such, but it doesn't take much research to discover that it really isn't this way at all.
The average person in the United States lives a life that not even the wealthiest of a hundred years ago could dream of. Some people have more than others, some people have less. As an example of the current system's continued concentration of wealth in the hands of a few
what do you think of inheritence? Should all money be confiscated upon death? Level the playing field a little more? Are you aware that the largest class of corporate owners in this country are pension funds?

But I am not concerned solely with the United States government. The system that truly runs things is beyond regional governance.
WHAT SYSTEM??????? The Illuminatti????





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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3314363 - 11/03/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Source said:
I said, 'if it wasn't for the system I'm bashing we would be on Mars right now', the system being the current world system. I'm sorry if I wansn't clear on that...although I think I was. You are making this into a 'if it's not THIS system it's going to be NO system' kind of thing.
What system would you propose? Be specific please in your construction of it. Try not to succumb to the easy way out of describing your system by what it is not
Clearly I stated that I wansn't against government per se, I am against the current world government which (again) is run by those that profit from what is not in mankinds best interest.
What world government???? There is no such thing. There is a collection of several hundred states. Within each of these states there are varying numbers and degrees of disparate interests. The individuals within these states may be squelched in their opportunities to achive their interests to varying degrees. "Mankind" does not have interests. Individuals do, and they often conflict. You are anthropomorphizing an abstract concept and giving it attributes that should only be applied to real people, like desires and fears and interests. Further, you cannot say what any other persons interests are, only they themselves can.

It is my opinion that the vast majority of people that would do me harm exist BECAUSE of the system you are saying I need to protect me. Ironic isn't it?
You can certainly have this opinion but you would be wrong. For as long as there have been humans, there have been those who would dominate and control others. A simple and contemporary example of this is organized crime figures that extort money from businesses, demanding a portion of their revenues in order to insure that these same individuals do not burn down their business or break their legs or worse. I have worked on several construction projects in NYC where there were these "coalitions" that went around and demanded that we pay one of their flunkies for a no work job. One guy just sat in a chair all day. Unfortunately for him, a rival coalition came by and sprayed the street and he got some boo-boos.
I think you are wrong to think that our current government 'is a system by which people cooperate for thier mutual benefit'. There is more than ample evidence that our current government exists to benefit the few at the expense of the many. If our government were the way you make it sound I would have absolutely no problem with it. It is exactly the kind of government you describe that I am saying we need. I find it curious that you believe we already have such a government. On the outside the United States government tries to appear to be such, but it doesn't take much research to discover that it really isn't this way at all.
The average person in the United States lives a life that not even the wealthiest of a hundred years ago could dream of. Some people have more than others, some people have less. As an example of the current system's continued concentration of wealth in the hands of a few
what do you think of inheritence? Should all money be confiscated upon death? Level the playing field a little more? Are you aware that the largest class of corporate owners in this country are pension funds?

But I am not concerned solely with the United States government. The system that truly runs things is beyond regional governance.
WHAT SYSTEM??????? The Illuminatti????








You have to look at the forest instead of the trees. Yes, overtly the world appears to be run by hundreds of individual governments, each with its own interests, but there are elements that wield a great deal of power and influence the direction the world is headed (milti-national corporations, bilderberg, G8, trilateral commission...). But forget all that.

What is important is not whether a single world government is calling the shots or a collection of hundreds of governments. What IS important is what the goals are collectively when you throw them all in together. You CAN determine what the values of the 'global system' are simply by looking at where we are and where we are headed globaly. What are the trends in decision making? What are the common threads? When you do this you will get a picture of what the 'world government' is really about, It is this that I have described in part in my previous post (based on greed, rooted in violence, unjust...). I agree it is impossible to know the motivation of each and every decision maker on earth, but collectively it is easy enought to see.

What system would I propose? A system that looks out for the well-being of every person on earth rather than the well being of the super-rich. A system that does not poison and destroy the life support systems of the planet we and future generations rely upon for survival. A system that is just...where powerful countries run by corporations are not allowed to steal resources from the poor in the third world. A system in which all are free to pursue life.

In short, a system that is not run by those who profit from raping the earth, sustaining a permenent war state and enslaving the world. To be even shorter...a moral system (not in the churcy sense).

Yes, people tend to dominate others, especially in the current world culture. In fact the biggest dominator of all is this 'system' that I am describing. What you related at the construction project is a small scale analogy of what is happening globally. The 'coalitions' themselves are dominated by those controlling the system.

Is it surprising that a system that dominates it's subordinates will produce sub-dominators? By the way, I never said we didn't need some sort of police to protect people from those with less than moral ambitions. There will always be sociopaths, but under the current system I believe we have many more than otherwise. People tend to look at the world and think, 'well governments fight wars, kill and steal...that's just the nature of the world. I would do well to learn from that'. Many people take thier moral cues from those in authority.

Like I said earlier, why should we be shocked at the events at columbine when on the same day the U.S. was conducting bombing operations?

It's the whole CULTURE!

Yes, those in the U.S. appear to be enjoying unprecedented material success. Things are not always what they seem though...it can be argued that our standard of living is falling (though I won't argue it here). Also, the concetration of wealth isn't static, it's shifting more and more to the top. But the point is AT WHAT COST? What about the rest of the world? How much of our luxury comes from the missery of the third world?

I'm not sure about the whole inheritance thing.

I will be the first to say that I don't know the whole truth. All I know is that I've learned enough to ask myself questions.

I try to give people the bennefit of the doubt, so I believe that you would preffer to live in a world that is free of war, poverty, injustice, senseless destruction of our planet, etc. So the questions we must ask are, 'Why are the worse attributes of man perpetuated by those in control?' and 'What do we need to do to change it before it's too late?'


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