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OfflineSource
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The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL...
    #3256021 - 10/20/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

...is that our current world system is seriously fucked up and whether Bush or Kerry wins is not going to change that.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3256150 - 10/20/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Bush is changing that. Tens of millions of people are realizing freedom and democracy. I can't say much about Kerry though.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3256179 - 10/20/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

don't be such a negative Nilly.

If John kerry becomes president he will fix things. Well he will start to fix things anyhow.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3256205 - 10/20/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Bush is changing that.  Tens of millions of people are realizing freedom and democracy.  I can't say much about Kerry though.



:rotfl:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3256209 - 10/20/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
don't be such a negative Nilly. 

If John kerry becomes president he will fix things.  Well he will start to fix things anyhow.



:rotfl:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3256298 - 10/20/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Bush is changing that. Tens of millions of people are realizing freedom and democracy. I can't say much about Kerry though.



Are you serious?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3256310 - 10/20/04 03:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'll vote libertarian so that the federal government gets chopped in half.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: MAGnum]
    #3256488 - 10/20/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What is the libertarian position on the environment?


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3256513 - 10/20/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
What is the libertarian position on the environment?



The Pollution Solution: Stopping the environment's worst enemy
BY DR. MARY RUWART

Who's the greatest polluter of all? The oil companies? The chemical companies? The nuclear power plants?

If you guessed "none of the above," you'd be correct. Our government, at the federal, state, and local levels, is the single greatest polluter in the land. In addition, our government doesn't even clean up its own garbage!

In 1988, for example, the EPA demanded that the Departments of Energy and Defense clean up 17 of their weapons plants which were leaking radioactive and toxic chemicals -- enough contamination to cost $100 billion in clean-up costs over 50 years! The EPA was simply ignored. No bureaucrats went to jail or were sued for damages. Government departments have sovereign immunity.

In 1984, a Utah court ruled that the U.S. military was negligent in its nuclear testing, causing serious health problems (e.g. death) for the people exposed to radioactive fallout. The Court of Appeals dismissed the claims of the victims, because government employees have sovereign immunity.

Hooker Chemical begged the Niagara Falls School Board not to excavate the land where Hooker had safely stored toxic chemical waste. The school board ignored these warnings and taxpayers had to foot a $30 million relocation bill when health problems arose. The EPA filed suit, not against the reckless school board, but against Hooker Chemical! Government officials have sovereign immunity.

Government, both federal and local, is the greatest single polluter in the U.S. This polluter literally gets away with murder because of sovereign immunity. Libertarians would make government as responsible for its actions as everyone else is expected to be. Libertarians would protect the environment by first abolishing sovereign immunity.

By turning to government for environmental protection, we've placed the fox in charge of the hen house -- and a very large hen house it is! Governments, both federal and local, control over 40% of our country's land mass. Unfortunately, government's stewardship over our land is gradually destroying it.

For example, the Bureau of Land Management controls an area almost twice the size of Texas, including nearly all of Alaska and Nevada. Much of this land is rented to ranchers for grazing cattle. Because ranchers are only renting the land, they have no incentive to take care of it. Not surprisingly, studies as early as 1925 indicated that cattle were twice as likely to die on public ranges and had half as many calves as animals grazing on private lands.

Obviously, owners make better environmental guardians than renters. If the government sold its acreage to private ranchers, the new owners would make sure that they grazed the land sustainably to maximize profit and yield.

Indeed, ownership of wildlife can literally save endangered species from extinction. Between 1979 and 1989, Kenya banned elephant hunting, yet the number of these noble beasts dropped from 65,000 to 19,000. In Zimbabwe during the same time period, however, elephants could be legally owned and sold. The number of elephants increased from 30,000 to 43,000 as their owners became fiercely protective of their "property." Poachers didn't have a chance!

Similarly, commercialization of the buffalo saved it from extinction. We never worry about cattle becoming extinct, because their status as valuable "property" encourages their propagation. The second step libertarians would take to protect the environment and save endangered species would be to encourage private ownership of both land and animals.

Environmentalists were once wary of private ownership, but now recognize that establishing the property rights of native people, for example, has become an effective strategy to save the rain forests. Do you remember the movie, Medicine Man, where scientist Sean Connery discovers a miracle drug in the rain forest ecology? Unfortunately, the life-saving compound is literally bulldozed under when the government turns the rain forest over to corporate interests. The natives that scientist Connery lives with are driven from their forest home. Their homesteading rights are simply ignored by their own government!

Our own Native Americans were driven from their rightful lands as well. Similarly, our national forests are turned over to logging companies, just as the rain forests are. By 1985, the U.S. Forest Service had built 350,000 miles of logging roads with our tax dollars -- outstripping our interstate highway system by a factor of eight! In the meantime, hiking trails declined by 30%. Clearly, our government serves special interest groups instead of protecting our environmental heritage.

Even our national parks are not immune from abuse. Yellowstone's Park Service once encouraged employees to trap predators (e.g., wolves, fox, etc.) so that the hoofed mammals favored by visitors would flourish. Not surprisingly, the ecological balance was upset. The larger elk drove out the deer and sheep, trampled the riverbanks, and destroyed beaver habitat. Without the beavers, the water fowl, mink, otter, and trout were threatened. Without the trout or the shrubs and berries that once lined the riverbanks, grizzlies began to endanger park visitors in their search for food. As a result, park officials had to remove the bears and have started bringing back the wolves.

Wouldn't we be better served if naturalist organizations, such as the Audubon Society or Nature Conservancy, took over the management of our precious parks? The Audubon Society's Rainey Wildlife Sanctuary partially supports itself with natural gas wells operated in an ecologically sound manner. In addition to preserving the sensitive habitat, the Society shows how technology and ecology can co-exist peacefully and profitably.

The environment would benefit immensely from the elimination of sovereign immunity coupled with the privatization of "land and beast." The third and final step in the libertarian program to save the environment is the use of restitution both as a deterrent and a restorative. Next month's column will feature the second part of the Pollution Solution, answering the question: "How would libertarians keep our air and water clean?"

Mary J. Ruwart, Ph.D., is the author of Healing Our World: The Other Piece of the Puzzle, a liberty primer for liberals, Christians, New Agers, and pragmatists. She also wrote Short Answers to the Tough Questions: Sound Bites for the Libertarian Candidate after her Internet column (www.self-gov.org) of the same name.

http://lp.org/issues/environment.html


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: z@z.com]
    #3256816 - 10/20/04 05:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

*suspiciously spoken* Sounds pretty good...maybe. I'm still a little squeamish with the whole 'privitize everything' kind of approach. As far as the government being responsible for more pollution than anyone else...was the government really acting alone in thier pollution or were military-undustrialist corporations (etc) operating under contract with the government (and therefore under the immunity)? Making the governemnt accountable for its pollution will not solve anything unless the corporations working with the government are also held accountable. Otherwise, the government will get sued, I will have to pay and the bastards in the corporate board room will get off scott free.

See, the thing is that corporations have thier hands up the ass of the government puppet. If we remove the puppet, we still have the problem of the corporations who are profiting from destroying the earth.

Also, aren't libertarians for free trade? So even if we started holding corporations responsible regarding environmental concerns here, wouldn't they just move operations to countries with less sensible laws?

Environmentalism is nothing if it isn't global.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3256994 - 10/20/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
*suspiciously spoken* Sounds pretty good...maybe. I'm still a little squeamish with the whole 'privitize everything' kind of approach. As far as the government being responsible for more pollution than anyone else...was the government really acting alone in thier pollution or were military-undustrialist corporations (etc) operating under contract with the government (and therefore under the immunity)? Making the governemnt accountable for its pollution will not solve anything unless the corporations working with the government are also held accountable. Otherwise, the government will get sued, I will have to pay and the bastards in the corporate board room will get off scott free.



Under a libertarian government, nobody is above the law. Corporations will have to pay polluter fines just as the government does.

Quote:

See, the thing is that corporations have thier hands up the ass of the government puppet. If we remove the puppet, we still have the problem of the corporations who are profiting from destroying the earth.



It's a mutual relationship. Corporations finance politicians' campaigns to buy influence in government, and in return, government gives them special protections or subsidies. If we returned to a Constitutionally limited government, as well as a small government which would come about by repealing income taxes, there would be no government influence to buy, because that government would be bound by the Constitution, and would not have the funds to dispense favors. If corporations could commit all the abuses they commit without help from the government, there would be no need to buy influence in it. It is precisely because of the power that can be bought from the government that they bother to make such large contributions. Without it, they would be bound by the same laws as everyone else, and have to compete without initiating force against anyone.

Quote:

Also, aren't libertarians for free trade? So even if we started holding corporations responsible regarding environmental concerns here, wouldn't they just move operations to countries with less sensible laws?



Isn't that what they're doing already? If we repeal excessive regulations and only stick with ones which punish the initiation of force, we might be able to win some of them back.

Quote:

Environmentalism is nothing if it isn't global.



So are you proposing a world government? That is the only way we could do this on a global level, and that would require unfathomable military spending.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3257043 - 10/20/04 06:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3257218 - 10/20/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

WTF?


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: silversoul7]
    #3257309 - 10/20/04 07:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Silversoul,

OK that seems to make sense. Remove the power from the government that corporations are currently buying, right?

So the limited government would be restricted to...what...enforcing and passing environmental laws? What power, environmentally speaking, would be removed from government control under a libertarian government? Some power would have to remain to punish offendors. How do you keep the remaining politicians from being influenced by corporations?

On the free trade issue, you said,

"Isn't that what they're doing already? If we repeal excessive regulations and only stick with ones which punish the initiation of force, we might be able to win some of them back."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that we should lift trade restrictions against gross polluters? And that by doing so we can get them on our environmentaly sane side?

You understand what I mean about environmentalism having to be global right? The earth respects no human boundaries. The air I and my children breath is from Russia, China, Poland, etc. Maybe something like 'we won't import anything manufactured in polluting countries' would do the trick.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3257704 - 10/20/04 08:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
...is that our current world system is seriously fucked up and whether Bush or Kerry wins is not going to change that.




What "world system" and why do you think it has been imposed by the US?


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3260386 - 10/21/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We are born into a system, live in a system and we will most likely die in a system. It is so pervasive that it is almost undetectable. In order to realize that we live in a system, you have to be able to recognize that WE DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THIS WAY.

In fact, I don't think I said the U.S. was solely imposing the system. But it is certainly one of the strongest elements in the system.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3262195 - 10/21/04 10:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You are right. You don't have to live this way. Make your own way. I still don't know what you mean by system. Could you describe it for me?


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InvisibleAntiMeme
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3264130 - 10/22/04 11:53 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The only way this is going to change is if there was a massive change of mindset in the American people (and their followers). As long as greed is considered the most essential quality, the US will continue to raise spoilt brats whose first priority is luxury and further self promotion.

Obviously, from reading PAL, not even strong psychedelics can sway the brainwashed masses onto a more sustainable path for all. And another sixties is not the solution either. Everything becomes a fad, and then it dies.


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OfflineSource
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3264193 - 10/22/04 12:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

By 'System', I mean the way the world is currently run and the values that are behind the way the world is run.

Our current system...

Is based primarily on greed.

Is based on short term profit. Do people even give a damn that our great-great-grandchildren will have to live here too? The way we treat the earth is nothing short of INSANE. Destroying the earth isn't just destroying beauty, it's destroying our very life support systems. When a dead beluga whale is found to be so full of toxins that it has to be treated as toxic waste, this is bad news for people too. People are brainwashed into thinking statements like these are made only by 'environmentalist wacko's'.

Is based in consumerism. We are brainwashed into constantly feeling the need to buy shit that we just don't need. People are made to feel that happiness is based on external circumstances rather than the result of internal cultivation. The very activities which create unhappiness are glorified through the media. What would happen to revenue if everyone discovered that happiness is free? The primary indicator used to measure the success of government is the stock market.

Is primarily set up to serve the few. The chasm between poverty and prosperity continues to grow. The small segment of people that are actually running things and profiting the most live in a different world than you or I. We are only the 'mob' to them.

Reinforces ideology. The left vs. the right. Religion against religion.

Is rooted in violence. Wars are orchestrated for the purpose of creating profit...to create new markets or aquire cheap resources. Ideologies are used as the means to get the mob to support and fight the wars. We teach our children not to solve problems through violence (at least some of us do), and yet when an international conflict arises we bomb the shit out of eachother. What right does the U.S. have to be shocked at Columbine when on the same day the U.S. was conducting a bombing operation? What does it mean when the people who have the most to gain from war (the military-industrial complex) are the ones running things?

Is unjust. Resources are not fairly divided nor consumed. Internationally, the 'haves' steal from the 'have nots'. What motivation is there for the people who profit the most from capitalism to improve the conditions of people living in the third world when these same impoverished people will work in factories for a few dollars a day?

...etc...etc...


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: The Only Statement I Will Make With Firm Commitment On PAL... [Re: Source]
    #3264389 - 10/22/04 01:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Source, this current world system has been in place for actually about 2,200 years, right around there.

Much of the power has been passed down through family, and organized means.....there has been an Order established on this planet for a very long time (like I said, about 2,200 years).

It goes beyond american politics, but yes....american politics is within this Order.





You are looking for things to change, it will not happen with politics. Jesus knew this, and thats why when the zealots tried to get him to fight with them to take down the Roman empire, he simply said "My hour has not yet come" and told them thats not his purpose here on earth.



If you really want the system to change, it will have to happen on its own. Not through revolution, or destruction....but through two major effects.

1) People will wake up
2) The system is destructive in its greed/power/control desire. It will self-destroy after a few thousand years. (we are in the final years)


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