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Offlinenycomyco
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 651
Loc: PA
Last seen: 7 months, 4 days
"Unconstitutional"
    #3253873 - 10/20/04 12:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I just watched a viewing of Unconstitutional by Nonny De La Pe?a. I advise everyone to get out and watch this movie. I wrote up a summary of the major points of the movie. Hopefully it will motivated some to go out and watch the film:

Rights of people abroad: People in Arab countries such as Syria, Afghanistan, and Pakistan are being arrested without any trial, tribunal, or evidence and sent to Guantanamo Bay Cuba which is run solely by the military. Because of stipulations, the detainees are not subject to the protection laid out in the Geneva Convention, and because they are being detained on non-American soil, they are not protected by American Constitutional rights, including freedom to a lawyer, fair trial, reason for being arrested, or even evidence! Rumsfeld said they will be held until there is no global threat of terrorism, which is never since there is always political dissonance, organization, and violence. Does this make us safer at home, or does it sound more like government run terrorism that can only increase hatred.

Rights of people in America: Because of a bill passed silently and secretly by John Ashcroft (a bill much more menacing than the patriot act because it enables violence and not just invasion of privacy) thousands of Americans are being detained in solitary confinement across the nation. Even more scary is that the bill does not require any justification for the arrests and no notification of family or anything. In essence, the government is kidnapping Arab-Americans without evidence of terrorist activities or any crimes and without any obligation to produce a reason for detaining the citizens. Even worse, they are reporting these kidnappings as the capturing of terrorists or those who interacted with terrorists, at least they reported them until the total eclipsed 1000 because of public demand for an explanation for the vast numbers of those detained. Because no rights apply to these individuals, they can be held indefinitely, just as those detained in Guantanamo Bay. Additionally, Arab-Americans are being seized and deported on international airliners to the countries of their origin without any explanation or notification of family. There are reports that many of these individuals, many of whom fled their countries because of political suppression, received violence and even death after being deported. Law enforcement can also conduct checks on those individuals who com forward to the police for information regarding terrorism, creating a fear of deportation for immigrants in Arab communities who are vital sources of intelligence. These measures do not protect us, they make us more vulnerable, while they destroy individuals and families. This is interment.

The Patriot Act: The original USA Patriot Act was drafted by a bipartisan committee very carefully because the issues involved civil liberties which are so fundamental to the American ideal and consititution. After 3:00 am the morning of that the Patriot Act was supposed to be sent through Congress, the Bush Administration edited the bill and added some measures that had been knocked down as unconstitutional even before 9/11. They added many measures that had nothing to do with Terrorism, but rather petty crime. The Patriot Act allows the government to use law enforcement to search homes without any reasonable cause, take possessions, inspect private purchasing information, internet activity, library borrowing activity. Law enforcement is obligated to check immigration records for VICTIMS of crime! There is a list very similar to the blacklist of the McCarthy era going on right now, and the government, by definition of the Patriot Act, does not have to supply any evidence backing up their actions.

Rights to activism: If one is a public political dissonant (or even private for that matter because of government records of internet and library activity) they can be put on a ?blacklist? where the government monitors them and inspects them, assuming they may have connections to terrorism. Since when is political dissent terrorism? The scary part is that Ashcroft?s bill allows ANYONE to be detained without proper protection, so why not go after dissenters? The government deploys vital law enforcement officers to spy on and even manipulate organizations, and these officers pose as group members. Even worse, police posing as group members have tried to persuade the groups to plant bombs, fake bombs, or engineer a bomb scare simply so that the government can connect them to planning terrorist attacks. This sounds a bit like foreign policy, doesn?t it? Disguised police officers have also moved among activists and sprayed pepper spray to try to break up protests. These adulterations to the way in which law enforcement enforces strain a vital area of anti-terrorism, local law enforcement, while allowing for violence and fear tactics against dissenters.


T


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: nycomyco]
    #3254249 - 10/20/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Argh! More gibberish.

I see I'll have a busy day tomorrow.

It'll be interesting to see how many of the points I picked out on my first quick scan are caught and commented on by others before I get a chance to point them out myself.

Good night, all.


pinky


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: Phred]
    #3254550 - 10/20/04 02:44 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There is no one being held in Gitmo without due process and two young prisoners did not die there?

And Ashcroft cares deeply about the people and our freedoms?

I can see I am going to have a long day tomorrow.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinenycomyco
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 651
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Last seen: 7 months, 4 days
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: Phred]
    #3254565 - 10/20/04 02:48 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I admit, I am no political theorist. Some of my details are probably a bit off, though I tried to write it up with the facts still fresh in my mind. I warn you not to look this over too pettily, however, as there are some extremely important points in this film. I doubt you will be able to exculpate this administration for its horrible foreign policy that has obviously made America more vulnerable, the Middle East more unstable, and civil liberties ignored more readily than any point in recent history.
Amnesty International estimates that 90% of those detained in Guantanamo Bay have no connection to terrorism (I've heard lower as well, but there is no easy way to estimate this as there have been no trials). It is a known fact in the military that many of those detained in Abu Ghraib were humiliated, raped, so that the inmates could be blackmailed to go out and join the insurrection and report back with information lest the embarassing photos be shown to their families. It seems that our system of intelligence in Iraq now is based on kidnapping and blackmail.


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Offlinenycomyco
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 651
Loc: PA
Last seen: 7 months, 4 days
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: nycomyco]
    #3258378 - 10/20/04 11:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

anyone else see it?


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Offlinenycomyco
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Registered: 11/13/03
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Last seen: 7 months, 4 days
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: nycomyco]
    #3260959 - 10/21/04 05:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

pink?


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: nycomyco]
    #3262412 - 10/21/04 11:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rights of people abroad: People in Arab countries such as Syria, Afghanistan, and Pakistan are being arrested without any trial, tribunal, or evidence and sent to Guantanamo Bay Cuba which is run solely by the military.




Syria? I find that impossible to believe, since there are no coalition troops operating within Syria's borders and the Syrians sure as hell aren't arresting anyone and sending them over to Gitmo. Are there Syrians in Gitmo? Could be, but they sure as hell weren't arrested in Syria.

As for the "no evidence" "no trial" observation, those people are prisoners of war. You attack a coalition position in Afghanistan, for example, and are captured rather than killed, you are a prisoner of war. No need for trial -- the act of attacking is all that's required.

Quote:

Because of stipulations, the detainees are not subject to the protection laid out in the Geneva Convention...




1) The Geneva Convention applies only to those countries who are signatories to it. It does not apply to combatants who are not part of a regular army of a country which has declared war on another.

2) The Geneva Convention applies only to those who follow it. Spies, for example, are unprotected by the Geneva Convention, because they aren't uniformed. Those who disguise themselves as civilians, pop up from behind a wall to take a shot at troops, then ditch their weapon and attempt to blend in with the crowd, are not following the Geneva Convention and are therfore not afforded its protections.

3) The prisoners at Gitmo receive far better treatment than the Geneva Convention specifies.

4) Both Bush and Rumsfeld have directed that even though they are under no obligation to apply Geneva Convention terms to the prisoners at Gitmo, the prisoners are to be afforded all those protections anyway.

Quote:

...they are not protected by American Constitutional rights, including freedom to a lawyer, fair trial, reason for being arrested, or even evidence!




This makes them no different from enemy POWs in WWII, for example. They are not on trial for war crimes, they are POWs being detained at a POW camp.

Quote:

Because of a bill passed silently and secretly by John Ashcroft...




This is horseshit. Congress passes bills, not the Attorney General. Ashcroft can persuade a member of Congress to introduce a bill. He cannot pass it, or enact it, or write it into law. The House and Senate must both pass the bill, then the president must sign it.

Quote:

...thousands of Americans are being detained in solitary confinement across the nation.




Thousands of Americans? Horseshit. In solitary? More horseshit. Let's see a source for that astounding statement from someone other than the producer of this movie.

Quote:

Additionally, Arab-Americans are being seized and deported on international airliners to the countries of their origin without any explanation or notification of family.




Are these Arabs in the country legally? By the way, "Arab-American" is the term used for American citizens of Arabic heritage. They have no "countries of origin", they were born here. Unless you refer to American citizens of Arabic descent who entered the US and later became citizens, in which case they cannot be deported without having their citizenship revoked first.

Quote:

Law enforcement can also conduct checks on those individuals who com forward to the police for information regarding terrorism, creating a fear of deportation for immigrants in Arab communities who are vital sources of intelligence.




Yes, law enforcement can (and should) run background checks on informants to ascertain the trustworthiness of what they are trying to sell. They would be derelict in their duties if they failed to do this. This doesn't mean they will automatically report these informants to immigration.

That'll do for starters. Gotta move on now.



pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,462
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: Phred]
    #3263866 - 10/22/04 09:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

pinky writes:
As for the "no evidence" "no trial" observation, those people are prisoners of war. You attack a coalition position in Afghanistan, for example, and are captured rather than killed, you are a prisoner of war. No need for trial -- the act of attacking is all that's required.

What about all the people in Gitmo who are completely innocent? Why are they considered "prisoners of war"?

That would be like a country invading the Dominican Republic and then throwing you in prison as a POW, despite the fact that you have done nothing. No trial. No lawyer.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,462
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: trendal]
    #3263867 - 10/22/04 09:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Oh and for anyone else who wants to watch this flick:

http://66.90.75.92/suprnova//torrents/2766/Unconstitutional.img.torrent

Gotta love bittorrent :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: trendal]
    #3263899 - 10/22/04 10:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

trendal writes:

What about all the people in Gitmo who are completely innocent?

Which ones might those be?

What about the ones released from Gitmo after signing pledges they wouldn't return to war? So far there have been at least seven -- that we know about -- who went right back to the battlefield. See my recent thread titled "Recidivism with a bang". Fortunately, two of those seven have been killed already. Who knows how many people they killed between their release and their deaths? Who knows how many people the five still at large will kill before they too are re-captured or killed?

That would be like a country invading the Dominican Republic and then throwing you in prison as a POW, despite the fact that you have done nothing.

If the government of the Dominican Republic is ever overthrown by someone like Saddam Hussein or the Taliban I'll be out of here long before anyone gets around to attempting to depose them.



pinky


--------------------


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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: Phred]
    #3263918 - 10/22/04 10:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So far there have been at least seven



Only seven. Out of the tens of thousands of detainees held indefinately only 7? Maybe we should lock up the entire american population with the hopes of catching a couple drugees.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: "Unconstitutional" [Re: Phred]
    #3263939 - 10/22/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Which ones might those be?

Oh...lemme just find my list of names that I have around here somewhere :smirk:

No, in all seriousness, many of the men/boys being held in Gitmo are probably completely innocent. I know you're stuck on a slow dial up connection, so you won't bother to watch the Frontline episode entitled "Son of Al Qaeda", but you can at least read some of the story here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/

Abdurahman Khadr was placed by the CIA into Gitmo prison to try and gather information from the other prisoners. He told the CIA that MOST of the people in there are not terrorists.

I remember reading somewhere else (no link, sorry) that the US is paying people thousands of dollars to turn in people they "know" to be terrorists. From what I read, in many cases this has lead to people turning in innocent people who they have a grudge against.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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