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Anonymous

Re: Free Saddam! [Re: Vvellum]
    #3247694 - 10/12/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

read the guardian article from beginning to end. then tell me if it does or does not support the claim that saddam hussein was offering $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers.

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: Vvellum]
    #3247732 - 10/12/04 03:25 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
what exactly is wrong with what alex is saying?




Quote:

Alex123 said:
15,000-20,000 is a rather liberal estimate of the number of civilians killed as a result of the invasion.

Rather conservative. Groups on the ground have estimated far higher figures than that.
lie, although I'm sure some random wackjob said 1,000,000,000 iraqis died so whatever
saddam hussein himself killed several hundred thousand

But the bulk of those during the 1980's and 1991.
Topic was on his whole career so there is no point in mentioning this.
he was ordering summary executions of hundreds of political prisoners at late as 2001.

Source?

he supported international terrorist organizations such as abu nidal

Bullshit. He may have supported him in the 70's but expelled him from Iraq in 1983, then killed him in 2002 for working with exiles to overthrow Saddam.

Again the time period suggested was his whole career.
I suppose he did let Nidal live in the country for a while but is that really "supporting" a terrorist group? Countless convicted terrorists and horrendous ex-dictators have set up residence in the US - does that mean the US is "supporting" them?

Offering safe haven and actively pursuing in one's country are obviously two separate things.

and was offering $25,000 compensation for the families of suicide bombers in israel.

This is a hoary old tale. He was actually offering 25000 to palestinians who had their homes destroyed by the Isrealis. It was Tariq Ali who said he was going to do it when Saddam was looking for a little arab support. How much, if any, money he actually gave is open to question. To me it sounds like a good propaganda story.

Either hes ignorant on the subject or he was lying and expected not to be corrected

check out hussein's human rights record from organizations like amnesty international or human rights watch before making such absurd statements.

But we all knew he was a scumbag when he was at the height of his killing spree back in the 80's. So why don't we put Bush on trial for supporting Saddam too?




Quote:

Alex123 said:
the statement was false, i corrected him

Lets take your estimate then. You think Saddam killed more than 20,000 people in the last 10 years? Source?

Again the time period suggested was his whole career

by this line of reasoning the leaders of any state that engages in warfare, even a defensive war

But this wasn't a defensive war. There was no need whatsoever to slaughter those thousands of innocent people.

Alex misunderstood the content of what he was replying to.




Quote:

Alex123 said:
do you believe that the death toll of the invasion is higher than the number of iraqis killed by the ba'ath regime?

No, but higher than the number Saddam was killing in recent years.

Again he keeps bringing up the subject of recent years although it is irrelevant to this particular debate.

he didn't say anything about what happened before and after 1991. he sad "whole notorious career".

I thought he meant did Saddam ever kill more than 10-20,000 civilians in a single year?

sure..... and either he is ignorant on this subject or he lies here too

no, it's quite well documented.

Christ mush, you had to pick and choose lines very carefully out of that article to back up your point didn't you.

No wonder you somehow managed to avoid including this paragraph:

Still, the Hamas fighter was the absent star of yesterday's gathering at the Gaza YMCA as the only suicide bomber to be honoured by President Saddam's envoys, who handed out $245,000 (?152,000) to the relatives of those who died recently in the intifada, or suffered other losses such as having their homes destroyed by Israeli forces.  

And:

But Sheik Jamasi, quietly spoken and mournful, withheld praise for his son's actions, and for President Saddam. He said his support was for the Iraqi people because he knows first-hand what they are suffering.

"I support the Iraqi people who stand against aggression," he said. "Everyone who is conscious should support the Iraqi people no matter who is their leader because it is the Iraqi people who are suffering. We honour principles; we don't worship individuals."

Obviously by reading alex's response one can tell he was unable to correctly grasp the content of the article and how it was used by the poster he was replying to
Yesterday, there were 23 families on hand to take President Saddam's money

Well done, you cleverly managed to avoid pointing out only one of those families had anything to do with a suicide bomber. Was it just carelessness mush?  :smirk:

Holy shit, this one just takes the cake. He did not even say that, he was quoting the freaking article. I thought he read it. Also directly before that he cites how he paid different ammounts for different things. His use of the quotes gave no indication to me that he meant all 23 were parents of suicide bombers  




Terrible terrible reading comprehension. Don't try and tell me you guys don't pick up on this shit.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: d33p]
    #3247759 - 10/12/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Terrible terrible reading comprehension. Don't try and tell me you guys don't pick up on this shit.



Oh, we pick up on it all the time. Arguing with Alex is like having a conversation with a bucket filled from a horse stall.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: ]
    #3250443 - 10/13/04 01:01 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

i picked out that which was relevent. do the parts i left out contradict my claim?

If you think saying "Saddam was offering money to suicide bombers" is an accurate representation of that story then there's nothing more to say.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: d33p]
    #3250498 - 10/13/04 01:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I presume you are very drunk so I didn't bother reading anything but first and last few lines but this bullshit stopped me in my tracks:

Holy shit, this one just takes the cake. He did not even say that, he was quoting the freaking article. I thought he read it. Also directly before that he cites how he paid different ammounts for different things. His use of the quotes gave no indication to me that he meant all 23 were parents of suicide bombers

So let me get this straight. ONE out of the 23 families paid happened to be a suicide bomber and you think mush's claim that "Saddam was offering the families of suicide bombers $25000" is an accurate representation of the situation? When 22 out of 23 of the families WERN'T suicide bombers?

And you talk of comprehension  :eek:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: ]
    #3250897 - 10/13/04 03:42 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

To any reasonable person the fact that 22 out of the 23 were NOT suicide bombers would heavily suggest that Saddam was deliberately NOT picking the families of suicide bombers.

It's like reading a study that says "22 out of 23 people took psilocybin and had a great time but one went mad" and then summarising the study by saying "Psilocybin drives people mad".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: Free Saddam! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3251010 - 10/19/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

what happened to the other 6 pages of this thread??????????????

edit - now I know. ahh well these things happen I guess

Edited by CJay (10/19/04 09:57 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Free Saddam! [Re: Xlea321]
    #3251024 - 10/19/04 10:03 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

To any reasonable person the fact that 22 out of the 23 were NOT suicide bombers would heavily suggest that Saddam was deliberately NOT picking the families of suicide bombers.

was he offering $25,000 compensation for the families of suicide bombers or was he not?

look, this is very, very simple. the fact that saddam hussein offered compensation for victims of isreali aggression does not negate the fact that he also offered rewards to the families of suicide bombers. i do not see how you can fail to grasp that. it's a simple fact. it's a documented fact that he offered a $25,000 (up from $10,000) reward to the families of suicide bombers and it's a documented fact that he delivered on that offer. you are denying plainly visible reality.

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