Home | Community | Message Board


Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Amazon Portable Greenhouse, Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming
    #3241974 - 10/11/04 06:26 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Link

Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming
By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
11 October 2004


The rate at which global warming gases are accumulating in the atmosphere has taken a sharp leap upwards, leading to fears that the devastating effects of climate change may hit the world even sooner than has been predicted.

Atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide (CO2 ), the principal greenhouse gas, have made a sudden jump that cannot be explained by any corresponding jump in terrestrial emissions of CO2 from power stations and motor vehicles - because there has been none.

Some scientists think instead that the abrupt speed-up may be evidence of the long-feared climate change "feedback" mechanism, by which global warming causes alterations to the earth's natural systems and then, in turn, causes the warming to increase even more rapidly than before.

Such a development would mean the worldwide droughts, agricultural failure, sea-level rise, increased weather turbulence and flooding all predicted as consequences of climate change would arrive on much shorter time-scales than present scenarios suggest, and the world would have much less time to co-ordinate its response.

Only last month, Tony Blair expressed anxiety that global warming's dire effects would arrive not just in his children's lifetime, but in his own, and would "radically alter human existence".

The feedback phenomenon has already been predicted in the supercomputer models of the global climate on which the current forecasts of warming are based. A key aspect is the weakening, caused by the warming itself, of the earth's ability to remove huge amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere by absorbing it annually in its forests and oceans, in the so-called carbon cycle. (The forests and oceans are referred to as carbon "sinks".)

Hitherto, however, that weakening has been put decades into the future.

The possibility that it may be occurring now is suggested in the long run of atmospheric CO2 measurements that have been made since 1958 at the observatory on the top of Mauna Loa, an 11,000ft volcano in Hawaii, by the American physicist Charles Keeling, from the University of California at San Diego.

When he began, Dr Keeling, who is still in charge of the project and who might be said to be the Grand Old Man of CO2 , found the amount of the gas present in the atmosphere to be 315 parts per million by volume (ppm); today, after the remorseless increase in emissions from power stations and motor vehicles over the past four and a half decades, the figure stands at 376ppm.

This growth is what most scientists believe is causing the earth's atmosphere to warm up, as the increasing CO2 retains more and more of the sun's heat in the atmosphere, like the panes of a greenhouse.

But the worry now is not merely the swelling volume of CO2 but the sudden leap in its increase rate. Across all 46 years of Dr Keeling's measurements, the average annual CO2 rise has been 1.3ppm, although in recent decades it has gone up to about 1.6ppm.

There have been several peaks, all associated with El Ni?o, the disruption of the atmosphere-ocean system in the tropical Pacific Ocean that causes changes to global weather patterns. In 1988, for example, the annual increase was 2.45ppm; in 1998, 2.74ppm; both were El Ni?o years.

Throughout the series those peaks have been followed by troughs, and there has been no annual increase in CO2 above 2ppm that has been sustained for more than a year. Until now.

From 2001 to 2002, the increase was 2.08ppm (from 371.02 to 373.10); and from 2002 to 2003 the increase was 2.54ppm (from 373.10 to 375.64). Neither of these were El Ni?o years, and there has been no sudden leap in emissions.

The greater-than-two rise is also visible in two separate sets of CO2 measurements made by America's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, at Mauna Loa and other stations around the world.

At the weekend, Dr Keeling told The Independent the rise was real and worrying as it might indeed represent the beginnings of a feedback.

He said it might be associated with the Southern Oscillation, a pattern of high and low atmospheric pressure previously always associated with El Ni?os, or it might be something new.

"The rise in the annual rate of CO2 increase to above two parts per million for two consecutive years is a real phenomenon," Dr Keeling said.

"It is possible this is merely a reflection of the Southern Oscillation, like previous peaks in the rate, but it is possible it is the beginning of a natural process unprecedented in records.

"This could be a decoupling of the Southern Oscillation from El Ni?o events, which itself could be caused by increased CO2 in the atmosphere; or it could be a weakening of the earth's carbon sinks. It is a cause for concern."

Leading British scientists and environmentalists agree. "If this is a rate change [in the CO2 rise], of course it will be very significant," said Dr Piers Forster of the meteorology department of the University of Reading. "It will be of enormous concern, because it will imply that all our global warming predictions for the next 100 years or so will have to be redone. If the higher rate of increase continues, things will get very much worse. It will makes our predicament even more catastrophic."

Tom Burke, a former government adviser on green issues who is now an academic and environmental adviser to business, said: "This series of CO2 measurements is the world's climate clock, and it looks as if it may be ticking faster,"

"That means we are running out of time to stabilise the climate. Governments and business will both have to invest dramatically more if we are to avoid the global warming catastrophe that Tony Blair has warned against."


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3241981 - 10/11/04 06:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

That may sound scary, but don't worry, I've been assured by a certain C-level university graduate after he 'read' a study that he commissioned himself telling him that global warming is a problem, that it is not actually a problem.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3241986 - 10/11/04 06:38 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Gee thanks for the reassurance!  :grin:

I suppose we can expect the same ostrich like reaction from our beloved leaders!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242012 - 10/11/04 07:00 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

:yawn:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242026 - 10/11/04 07:35 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Your comments are always so well thought out and interesting Inny. I dont know how you do it, I really dont.

Nearly 15000 posts of this kind of quality..wow! how inspiring.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242028 - 10/11/04 07:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

years of intense research. This topic has been done more times then the queen.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242031 - 10/11/04 07:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

this is significant new news, i read it today too before this thread.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3242041 - 10/11/04 07:46 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

fair enough....new news same as the old news.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242043 - 10/11/04 07:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

new news same as the old news




I gather you didnt bother to read the article then.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3242056 - 10/11/04 07:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

new news same as old news...i read it


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242059 - 10/11/04 07:57 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So do you think we should be spending more time/money investigating the accuracy of the information and looking into the best ways to deal with this problem?

I wonder what progress would be made if a fraction of the money that has been spent chasing oil in the middle east was spent on this kind of thing instead.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242073 - 10/11/04 08:09 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

investigating the accuracy of the information and looking into the best ways to deal with this problem




It doesn't cost us money to stop polluting. I've never defended those who punp CO2 into the air. My beef is the scare tactic. Global warming is not proven, for every 10 scientists (BTW i like the way the article said "some scientists believe") that say it is happening I can find 10 that say the opposite.

Quote:

I wonder what progress would be made if a fraction of the money that has been spent chasing oil in the middle east was spent on this kind of thing instead.




you are a bitter, bitter man. Stay on topic.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242082 - 10/11/04 08:13 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

for every 10 scientists (BTW i like the way the article said "some scientists believe") that say it is happening I can find 10 that say the opposite.





So you say, but If I was a betting man Id lay money that you wont.

Quote:

you are a bitter, bitter man. Stay on topic.




Have you just suffered a blow to the head? Once your brain returns to normal functioning im sure you will realise that I was completely on topic.
And if being annoyed at the gross waste of money that our respective goverments have overseen in Iraq equates to bitterness in Innyland, then yes Im certainly bitter!

Edit: These scientists who disagree with global warming, do they disagree with the fact that man has played a part in it or do they actaully deny that any climate change is taking place at the moment?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (10/11/04 08:15 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242085 - 10/11/04 08:17 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So you say, but If I was a betting man Id lay money that you wont.




I already have Einstein. Check out the "The Greenin Of Mother Earth". There are scientist who back up my claim.

Quote:

And if being annoyed at the gross waste of money that our respective goverments have overseen in Iraq equates to bitterness in Innyland, then yes Im certainly bitter!




Innyland sounds like a nice place.....

You've already proven your bitter, no need to tell me.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242090 - 10/11/04 08:20 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

There are scientist who back up my claim.





Firstly, what exactly is your claim because im not quite sure?
Secondly, who exactly are these scientists?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242095 - 10/11/04 08:24 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Firstly, what exactly is your claim because im not quite sure?




search on the global warming toic that's been done before, I've said it a billion times and I won't again.

Quote:

Secondly, who exactly are these scientists?




I guess I can ask the same of those in the article since they say "some scientists". At least in that video they have names.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242097 - 10/11/04 08:27 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Looks like I would have won my bet..I must be psychic or you must be very predictable.

As you cant provide any sources for your "claims" I will just assume you are talking out of your arse!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242101 - 10/11/04 08:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Looks like I would have won my bet..I must be psychic or you must be very predictable.




don't flatter yourself.

Quote:

As you cant provide any sources for your "claims" I will just assume you are talking out of your arse!




:yawn:

keep doing what you do best Gazz, assume.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242109 - 10/11/04 08:41 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If its all this abstract 'scare tactic' to reduce pollution (although really, we just need to reduce carbon emmissions, other pollution is unimportant to the problem), why did the Bush administration's policy come back saying that global warming was a serious threat? Why did the IPCC, funded by governments, come back saying that government needed to go piss off its citizens and tell them they need to drive less and receive more industrty regulations? Why are these studies not funded by the sierra club and greenpeace instead of the sparing anti-global warming studies funded by shell and exxon?

oh and your assertion that there is about a 50/50 split in the scientific community regarding the existence of global warming is simply ludicrous and clear evidence that for the most part, you really are talking completely out of your ass on this subject.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3242122 - 10/11/04 08:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

( although really, we just need to reduce carbon emmissions, other pollution is unimportant to the problem),




I'm not sure what you mean by this but I'll say again that WE as the world need to pollute less (all polution). Penalize companies that don't comply and penalize violators that dump their shit into the water systems. But telling the world that if we don't stop, the world will heat up by predictions decades from now makes people think it's just a bunch of wacko's coming up with idiotic "theories", whether it's true or not. Be honest.

Quote:

why did the Bush administration's policy come back saying that global warming was a serious threat?




so let me get this straight, you take what bush says as gospel now?

Quote:

Why did the IPCC, funded by governments, come back saying that government needed to go piss off its citizens and tell them they need to drive less and receive more industrty regulations?




there is no doubt we are polluting the air, that's not the discussion, the discussion is whether or not it's causing Global warming. I'm all for electric cars, solar power and anything that makes the air and water cleaner. I just don't believe it's causing Global Warming.

Quote:

oh and your assertion that there is about a 50/50 split in the scientific community regarding the existence of global warming is simply ludicrous and clear evidence that for the most part, you really are talking completely out of your ass on this subject.




that's an assumption that you can't prove. That's fine if you like to be lied to, I just prefer the truth.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242176 - 10/11/04 09:32 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So you arent going to bother providing any links to the scientists who disagree with global warming?

Can you at least confirm whether they believe man has had no effect on climate change or whether they believe no climate change is taking place?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242235 - 10/11/04 10:09 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So you arent going to bother providing any links to the scientists who disagree with global warming?





whoa, way to make a stand. Actually no. Go check out the other threads on this topic.

Quote:

Can you at least confirm whether they believe man has had no effect on climate change or whether they believe no climate change is taking place?




They believe and I tend to agree that a majority of the CO2 is made natuarally and benefits vegitation growth. I think it's pompous for man to think that they have the ability to cause the weather to change. Perhaps it's possible but noone knows. I am not naive enough to say that it can't happen, however i'm also not naive enough to say without a doubt that it will or is happening.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242258 - 10/11/04 10:31 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's pompous for man to think that they have the ability to cause the weather to change.

Hmm...and your qualifications as a climate scientist are what exactly?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Xlea321]
    #3242266 - 10/11/04 10:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Alex, you know I don't find you worthy of a reply, why do you insist on trying?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242401 - 10/11/04 11:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So why did you reply?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Xlea321]
    #3242496 - 10/11/04 12:35 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

good point..there I did it again.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242570 - 10/11/04 01:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

whoa, way to make a stand. Actually no. Go check out the other threads on this topic.




Why cant you just tell me who these scientists are? Whats the title of the thread im looking for anyway?..bet you cant even tell me that can you! Wouldnt it be easier, for the sake of debate, if you just gave me the names of these scientists so I can go away and see what they have to say?

Quote:

They believe and I tend to agree that a majority of the CO2 is made natuarally and benefits vegitation growth.




I think the issue is when there is more Co2 than plants can absorb then we have a problem. Many think the current levels of Co2 put us into that situation.

Quote:

I think it's pompous for man to think that they have the ability to cause the weather to change.




Pompous? Thats a good one! Hardly solid proof to the contrary though is it inny!

Regardless of whether man has any involvement, do you think we are facing a potentially dramatic change in the global climate?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242631 - 10/11/04 01:21 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Why cant you just tell me who these scientists are?




I have no idea who the scientist are, just as you don't know the ones that the article is referring to. I won't repeat my self so if you don't want to look up the old thread then that is your problem.

Quote:

I think the issue is when there is more Co2 than plants can absorb then we have a problem.




then your thought is a mere guess. the whole global warming scare tactic is just that, a guess.

Quote:

Pompous? Thats a good one! Hardly solid proof to the contrary though is it inny!




not any less credible then screaming that the sky is falling.

Quote:

Regardless of whether man has any involvement, do you think we are facing a potentially dramatic change in the global climate?




whoa, wait a minute. What do you mean? Man is either the problem or they are not, there is no regaurdless. Don't start flip flopping on me. and NO, i don't think we are facing a potentially dramatic change in global climate. If you were to read the old thread this had been discussed.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3242719 - 10/11/04 01:51 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

then your thought is a mere guess. the whole global warming scare tactic is just that, a guess.






So announcing fact that an abnormal jump in co2 levels has been recorded in multiple observatories around the world is a scare tactic? Its the first time that a jump of this magnitude has been recorded 2 years on the trot but of course you are aware of all this having read the article....

Quote:

whoa, wait a minute. What do you mean? Man is either the problem or they are not, there is no regaurdless. Don't start flip flopping on me. and




Show me anywhere in this thread where I have said man is the cause of this?

I do think that our governments should be focusing more on this issue and investing more in confirming whether or not we face a real danger here and if we do then they should be planning how best to deal with it. As I said before, the money wasted in Iraq to help a few corporations get rich would, to my mind, have been much better spent looking into this real threat to the planet as opposed to imaginary wmds.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,855
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242846 - 10/11/04 02:28 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You know, at the beginning of the 1900s, I believe there was a scare that we were headed into another ice age.
Now we're going the other way.

I'm not saying we don't have ANY effect on the planet's climate..


what I WILL say is that we really have no goddamned clue how to predict or even recognize the long-term climatic changes that our planet has always gone through. They're on tens, hundreds of thousands of year cycles. We've only got the numbers on about a hundred years. Beyond that we have to guess.

And guess what.. those guesses we've been making about the past's climate? You know, tree ring analysis and whatnot? Turns out we were doing it wrong.

Can't find it now. recently read article. Guy used those methods to extrapolate past climate, then used past climate to construct what kind of growth rings and such should be expected, and fed it back into the original equations to extrapolate the past climate..

and it was fubared. didn't come out the same, obviously, it wouldn't because of estimations.. but it DID come out far more different than it should have. Bleh I'll have to find that...


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3242865 - 10/11/04 02:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So announcing fact that an abnormal jump in co2 levels has been recorded in multiple observatories around the world is a scare tactic? Its the first time that a jump of this magnitude has been recorded 2 years on the trot but of course you are aware of all this having read the article....




in the old thread there is a chart that shows a HUGE jump in CO2 level (about the same as we have today) around the 12th century or so. Care to explain what man made device caused that?

Quote:

but of course you are aware of all this having read the article....




I find it funny that the guy took CO2 readings near and on top of a volcano in Hawaii. Doesn't seem very smart.

Quote:

Show me anywhere in this thread where I have said man is the cause of this?




are you saying that this shift in CO2 is natural?

Quote:

I do think that our governments should be focusing more on this issue and investing more in confirming whether or not we face a real danger here and if we do then they should be planning how best to deal with it




They should focus on companies polluting and doing lefitamite research to whether or not this threat is man made or a natural cycle that is evident in the graphs shown in the old thread.

Quote:

As I said before, the money wasted in Iraq to help a few corporations get rich would, to my mind, have been much better spent looking into this real threat to the planet as opposed to imaginary wmds.




i'd rather have it spent on those living in poverty within my own country first.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3243461 - 10/11/04 04:25 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

in the old thread there is a chart that shows a HUGE jump in CO2 level (about the same as we have today) around the 12th century or so. Care to explain what man made device caused that?





I never said it was a man made device!??! Over what timeframe did this spike occur? 1 year, a decade?

Quote:

I find it funny that the guy took CO2 readings near and on top of a volcano in Hawaii. Doesn't seem very smart.




Thats probabaly why he's a highly respected scienctist and you spend too much time on the shroomery!

Quote:

are you saying that this shift in CO2 is natural? 




Im saying I wouldnt at all be surprised if humans had exacerbated the situation. However, it seems certain that Co2 levels are rising and we need to be thinking about the probabale effects and what we can do about them.

Quote:

They should focus on companies polluting and doing lefitamite research to whether or not this threat is man made or a natural cycle that is evident in the graphs shown in the old thread.





So is that the best you can do to backup your claim that man has had no effect on global warming? one spike in C02 emissions in the 12th century. Source: some old thread. Neato.  :grin:

Quote:

'd rather have it spent on those living in poverty within my own country first. 




Poverty in the US could have probabaly been eradicated twice over and there would most likely be more money left to pump into climate research than is currently being invested by the US government.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3243889 - 10/11/04 06:08 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Don't even bother with inny, gazz. he likes to think he's smart by thinking he 'sees through it all'. however the question of whether the globe is warming or not is no longer even an issue. the questions that continue are:

1) How much is man contributing to this effect
2) What will be the consequences
3) What will be the magnitude of those consequences (this is the question the article is dealing with)

i'm basing this on a university senior-level class on environmental politics taught by a PhD doctorate as well as a friend who studies Environmental Sciences at the university that is the frontrunner in climate change research in europe. she's even taken a class from a professor who doesn't believe humans are main cause of the rise in co2, but rest assured, he's the only one on the entire staff who believes it and even he doesnt question whether the globe is warming.


but don't just take my word for it, check out the ipcc website (ipcc.ch) whose reports are comprised of 122 coordinating lead authors, 515 contributing authors, 21 review editors and 420 expert reviewers from 99 countries.
Quote:

The role of the IPCC is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. The IPCC does not carry out research nor does it monitor climate related data or other relevant parameters. It bases its assessment mainly on peer reviewed and published scientific/technical literature.



they do not just 'guess' but use specific words that coordinate to how certain they are (e.g. highly likely means 90-99% certain and medium likelyhood means 33-66%).


try this for a start, its a synthesis report: http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/un/syreng/wg1spm.pdf

oh and before you give the impression of environmentalists being doomsayers, the last time they predicted catastrophe was over human emissions (CFCs) which were changing the earths ozone layer and thus climate (my god, how pompous eh inny?). fortunately policy makers acted quickly then (since it wasn't too much to ask their citizens/industries to give up CFCs) and it was halted, but we still have holes over antartica and argentina as a grim reminder that we most definately can have a huge impact on this earth. hell we're already causing the 6th mass species extinction in the 4 BILLION years history of this earth. our effect isn't pompous, its reality.

edit: typo


Edited by TaoTeChing (10/11/04 06:24 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3244069 - 10/11/04 06:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent post, Mushmonkey.

There are many many people, myself being one of them, who spend the bulk of their days studying global climate. It's unquestionably one of the hardest avenues of science on Earth. There are no solid answers with this kind of stuff. There probably never will be.

But what I hope everyone would agree on is that we should all do more reading on the subject and we should encourage our various governments to take the issue seriously. One thing that almost every person in the field agrees on is that humans have the potential to effect global climate. It's just that not everyone agrees on whether it's happening yet. Sooner or later, we're gonna have to face it. I'd like to see our current politicians at least take a closer look at it.

:cheers:


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3244075 - 10/11/04 06:58 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

run for the hills!!!!!!!

you claim global warming is a fact when you have absolutly no proof. Just as I said in the old thread, there are just as many experts that say the heating and cooling of the Earth is a natural cycle. This is not to say that we should pollute the Earth and release CFC's into the world.

You have yet to prove that we are in fact warming up. Global warming is a myth and you have yet to prove otherwise. Keep trying, maybe you can find a friend of a friend who knows a Dr. somewhere in a university that can back you up. Keep trying.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3244116 - 10/11/04 07:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you claim global warming is a fact




which part am i claiming is fact? You keep arguing two different points: are you arguing that the globe is warming but that its natural and not caused by humans or are you arguing that it is not warming at all? pick a side.

Quote:

when you have absolutly no proof.




uh yeah i do: the ipcc reports, which you'll note is a consensus and peer-reviewed. i challenge you to find me ONE such study on the other side that is a consensus of many scientists and has been peer-reviewed.

Quote:

Just as I said in the old thread, there are just as many experts that say the heating and cooling of the Earth is a natural cycle.




great, so this particular report had 515 contributors to its findings and conclusions, find me anything CLOSE to that from the other side.

Quote:

This is not to say that we should pollute the Earth and release CFC's into the world.



its not even necessarily about polluting and certainly not about CFCs (do you think CFCs have to do with global warming?), its about carbon emissions. if we can find a way to absorb that carbon, we won't need to cut down on pollution. in fact, scientists are already trying to come up with such a solution.

Quote:

Global warming is a myth and you have yet to prove otherwise.




no it is I who have provided a very credible peer-reviewed source. you have provided precisely fuck-all.

Quote:

Keep trying, maybe you can find a friend of a friend who knows a Dr. somewhere in a university that can back you up. Keep trying.




right, thats exactly what i said. 'find afoaf who knows someone', no its my closest friend who studies that, has taken a course specifically on climate change at the leading european university in climate change reseach and in fact is currently writing her dissertation on climate change perceptions. she assures me that the question of whether the globe is warming or not is no longer a question in the scientific community (it was up until a few years ago, but it is no longer).


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3245023 - 10/11/04 10:49 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
oh and before you give the impression of environmentalists being doomsayers, the last time they predicted catastrophe was over human emissions (CFCs) which were changing the earths ozone layer...



Do you know that before the thin area (not a hole) in the ozone layer was discovered, nobody knew if existed before or not? Do you know how ozone is created in the upper atmosphere? Do you know the half life of ozone? Bearing the two previous questions in mind, what areas of the globe receive the least sunshine during certain periods of the year? When does the ozone thin and when does it increase? Did you know that when the knowledge of this thinning was popularized that the patents had just about run out on freon, so it would be cheaper and to buy and DuPont would no longer have a legal monopoly on it's production? Fortunately, DuPont had replacement refrigerants waiting in the wings and a friendly Senator from Tennessee to help out their cause.

Oh, here's an interesting article which says that according to researchers from the National Science Foundation, the seasonally averaged surface air temperature in Antarctica has decreased by 0.7 degrees Celsius per decade. Strange, huh?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/11/04 10:54 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245051 - 10/11/04 10:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Here's a nice tidbit from the article...
Quote:

Authors of the new NSF report point out that previous studies showing Antarctica to be warming were conducted over 20 years ago, with temperature readings taken largely on the Antarctic Peninsula extending toward South America.


Peter Doran, of the University of Illinois at Chicago, the lead author of the paper, and his co-authors, contend that averaging the temperature readings from the more numerous stations on the Peninsula led to the misleading conclusion that the entire continent was warming. "Our approach shows that if you remove the Peninsula from the dataset, and look at the spatial trend. The majority of the continent is cooling," said Doran.




Whoops!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OnlineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 25,104
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 6 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3245527 - 10/12/04 12:25 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I suspect the CO2 increase is more due to our impact on the natural sequestration processes than on our increased CO2 production.

We should probably just nuke some mountain somewhere and it would solve the problem.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245626 - 10/12/04 12:49 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Evolving,

-Ozone is created by solar radiation hitting oxygen.
-According to one of my chem books, ozone has a half life of 3 days at 20 degrees celsius.
-The poles recieve the least amount of sunshine during their respective off seasons, if that's what you mean.
-If you're referring to internal proccesses, the ozone in the atmosphere should decrease when there's less oxygen being released into it. And increase when there's more oxygen being released into it.

I'm not really sure where you're going with all this. Most ozone is created at the equator and moves toward the poles (I think because the temp at the equator raises the troposhpere and ozone prefers to remain low, though remain in the stratopshere). The half life of O3 also increases greatly at colder temp (though I'm not sure if this has anything to do with why it accumulates at the polls).

It's funny you posted that article, cause one of my glacial professors was talking to me about it a few weeks ago. The most recent work that's been done (that study's a few years old) has shown that the most probable reason for the decrease in temp is an increase in the weather pattern over Antarctica, called the SAM. When the SAM strengthens, it's more likely to isolate cool air over Antarctica. Hence the cooling trend (the Antarctic Peninsula has most likely warmed because temp in the Bellingshausen Sea remains relatively warm). What's causing the strengthening of the SAM? The most likely culprit is thinning ozone in the Antarctic stratosphere.

Regardless, the cooling pattern in Antarctica has nothing to do with the main mechanisms behind global warming. It's just a meteorological side effect.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Gijith]
    #3245640 - 10/12/04 12:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't ozone created by the action of sunlight on the upper atmosphere? Now what happens during the winter in the Antarctica?

If most ozone is created at the equator and moves toward the poles, where would you expect to find the least amount (realizing that ozone is unstable and has a short half life)?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/12/04 12:58 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245679 - 10/12/04 01:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Right, sunlight creates 03. As far as I know, two things are currently happening during an Anarctic Winter: 1) Less sunlight=less ozone created (though the amount created in the Summer is pretty small). 2) Stratospheric clouds form (which is rare) and these clouds concentrate many of the pollutants in the air, which speeds up the breaking down of ozone.

You'd find the most ozone at the poles. Which is where most of it currently is.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsilygirl
cyan goddess
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245802 - 10/12/04 01:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ozone has little do to with global warming, it has to do with UV intensity and higher cancer rates. ozone depletion actually has a cooling effect in the atmosphere


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245925 - 10/12/04 01:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If it was polarized.. or moved to due to the properties of heat, it would naturally settle down at the bottom... where there is less heat, the heat at the north pole during the summer months would disperse and dissolve the ozone... bringing it to the lower hemisphere and southern poles. besides, with how cold it is there, it would stay....

Now if overall there was a shift in global 03 levels, with a rise in co2, that would mean that there would be a higher concentration of molecules... adding to the overall thickness of our atmosphere... increasing the heat.

Our sun will continue to grow..expanding towards the earth. As that will be one natural process we cannot control...




I dont see how anyone can argue, regardless of the warming trends that occur because of greenhouse gasses, that there is no need to adress this issue, or that it isnt happening. Thats like saying spousal abuse is just "talk of the devil".

I remember writing my research paper over this, and i couldnt realize enough how much more effort needs to be put into strengthening the science community and government towards the issue... But like you mentioned in your thread about capitalism and here with the scientific reports... its hard to form that bond because of various vested interests within this issue.

Bush proposed tax cuts for people with Hummers... You know how many hummers drive around DFW all the time? You know how many people drive superbly large SUV's... you knwo what kind of people these are? You see bush on their back winshield... They dont CARE!

Motor vehicles cause much more than just Air pollution... oil that drips from the cars drips on to the road... and poisons its surrounding environment when its washed off.

To anyone thinks that people in big corporations are going to tell people the absolute truth and the direness of the issue... are severely mis led... For they will mis lead everyone so they can secure their economic future...

Which brings the main issue... what is the cost?

Long term... Short Term?

Take your pick.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,855
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3246212 - 10/12/04 04:15 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I may be mistaken but I doubt it, but hasn't the hole in the ozone over Antartica been shrinking up pretty nicely?

And yeah.. we certainly COULD have a dramatic effect on the earth's climate. Whether we have yet or not is debatable. Whether we have and have to a point we cannot reverse the damage yet is also debatable.

Honestly I'm pretty optimistic about it. We're not going to totally break our dependence on oil for a long time, but fuel efficiency in cars is improving dramatically. gas/electric hybrids are getting 50+mpg, and that's using a traditional piston engine.. I'd say there's a lot of room to expand to say, a diesel turbine/electric hybrid, like trains now use (in fact I do wonder why we haven't seen that yet, it seems like it'd be the best solution.. less machinery to reduce the mechanical efficiency since everything's already spinning, the bit of lag in the turbine made up for by the instant response of the electric motors.. but hey, I'm not an auto engineer, I'm just some guy ;D )


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3246283 - 10/12/04 05:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I may be mistaken but I doubt it, but hasn't the hole in the ozone over Antartica been shrinking up pretty nicely?





yes it has, thanks to international policymakers responding to scientists and banning almost all use of CFCs in the Montreal Protocol (how did this thread become completely about ozone depletion? im still waiting for inny to find me a roughly comparable study proving---well proving whichever point it is exactly that he's trying to make)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246340 - 10/12/04 06:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

which part am i claiming is fact?




Global warming, the thing i've been saying througout this thread.

Quote:

You keep arguing two different points: are you arguing that the globe is warming but that its natural and not caused by humans or are you arguing that it is not warming at all?




Nice try ace. I've said from the beginning and throughout the old thread that I believe the Earth heats and cools naturally, hence the increased CO2 levels in the 12th century which none of your studies have given an answer for.

This argument is being changed to satisfy what point you are trying to make. In one breath from the old thread the heating is caused by man, then when we show examples that the Earth is not in fact heating like described we get told that the Glogal warming isn't in fact warming at all. You've people have me scratching my head wondering what the fuck is your point.

Quote:

no it is I who have provided a very credible peer-reviewed source. you have provided precisely fuck-all.




yet global temperatures haven't changed to back up your claim. It's sad that no matter how much you scream and say how many are on your side, the evidence just doesn't back up you claim that the Earth is warming at all.

Quote:

right, thats exactly what i said. 'find afoaf who knows someone', no its my closest friend who studies that, has taken a course specifically on climate change at the leading european university in climate change reseach and in fact is currently writing her dissertation on climate change perceptions.




excuse me if I don't believe you. I can say that I have people that study the opposite but wouldn't be worth much.

Quote:

she assures me that the question of whether the globe is warming or not is no longer a question in the scientific community (it was up until a few years ago, but it is no longer).




well in that case, I mean if she says it's happening then I must change my whole outlook. I have a friend that thinks your friend is making shit up.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 07:07 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3246353 - 10/12/04 07:03 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I dont see how anyone can argue, regardless of the warming trends that occur because of greenhouse gasses, that there is no need to adress this issue, or that it isnt happening.




noone said that we should ignore natural weather trends and if man can contibute to these issues. I'm stating that to just come out and say for sure that we are globally warming and leave it at that is BS. They use this as a scare tactic to push a specific subject a certain direction. I say study the hell out of it and come up with different views from different researchers, if man is contributing (i don't believe they are to the extent most here do) then I'll be on board. I, myself don't litter, I recycle and contribute my time and money to conservation, not because i'm scared that the Earth is heating (which it is not) but rather it makes the environment I live in, clean.

Quote:

Thats like saying spousal abuse is just "talk of the devil".




terribble analogy

Quote:

Bush proposed tax cuts for people with Hummers... You know how many hummers drive around DFW all the time? You know how many people drive superbly large SUV's... you knwo what kind of people these are? You see bush on their back winshield... They dont CARE!

Motor vehicles cause much more than just Air pollution... oil that drips from the cars drips on to the road... and poisons its surrounding environment when its washed off.

To anyone thinks that people in big corporations are going to tell people the absolute truth and the direness of the issue... are severely mis led... For they will mis lead everyone so they can secure their economic future...





you're going off topic, noone is implying that there is no pollution nor am I implying that we should ignore the fact that pollution is present. It seems many do not want to seperate the issue.

Quote:

Which brings the main issue... what is the cost?

Long term... Short Term?

Take your pick.




the main issue is global warming, is it truth or myth that man has contributed to it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246379 - 10/12/04 07:29 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

not because i'm scared that the Earth is heating (which it is not)




Still not a shred of evidence from you Inny. How do you know this? Please dont refer to the "old thread" again.

Quote:

the main issue is global warming, is it truth or myth that man has contributed to it.




Id say the main issue is establishing whether global warming is occuring or not.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246384 - 10/12/04 07:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

yet global temperatures haven't changed to back up your claim.








i again challenge you to find me a recent study of similar weight as the ipcc with the consensus of many scientists and peer-reviewed. i'm betting you won't.


and 'global warming' is a misleading term (which is why it's the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change). some parts of the globe will cool, but the overall effect will be warming, which is why the sea level will rise and island/costal settlements will be lost.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3246385 - 10/12/04 07:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't make the claim that Global warming exists, the burden of proof is on you.

Old thread.

Quote:

Id say the main issue is establishing whether global warming is occuring or not.




which you've provided no evidence to back that *ahem* article up.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246389 - 10/12/04 07:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm betting that graph is taken from one spot on the earth even though it has been proven that by using ise cores and other methods give an estimate, albeit a very inaccurate, measure of temperature. Sorry.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246395 - 10/12/04 07:44 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)





Nice try with that graph, it was posted in the old thread and you failed to prove your point. ooooh loook I have graphs, big deal.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 07:51 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246417 - 10/12/04 08:03 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246423 - 10/12/04 08:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

you gotta be kidding me, you would laugh your ass off if i came to you with a 12-YEAR LONG graph based on one type of measurement from one person edit: and its 14 years old..  do you even have a source that that's been peer reviewed? 

and here you go again, sometimes you're saying the earth is naturally warming and now you're arguing that it isn't warming at all :wtf:


Edited by TaoTeChing (10/12/04 08:20 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3246428 - 10/12/04 08:10 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the seasonally averaged surface air temperature in Antarctica has decreased by 0.7 degrees Celsius per decade. Strange, huh?




As has been pointed out by Psilygirl this is related to ozone depletion but dont get too excited yet...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246430 - 10/12/04 08:11 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)



Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246432 - 10/12/04 08:12 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you gotta be kidding me, you would laugh your ass off if i came to you with a 12-YEAR LONG graph based on one type of measurement from one person.




Beats the one location sampling that you have provided and mention in the previous thread. You claim to be able to tell what 98% of the earth's CO2 is with a core sampling taken from Antarctica. Sounds to me that your graph fails to mention how different areas of the world have different CO2 levels. This has been discussed and you still talk is if it is fact, mind blowing.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 08:18 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246434 - 10/12/04 08:15 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

and here you go again, sometimes you're saying the earth is naturally warming and now you're arguing that it isn't warming at all




Why are you arguing with yourself? I've always said that the Earth is flucuating naturally as shown in those graphs. You need to pay attention better.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246437 - 10/12/04 08:19 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I've always said that the Earth is flucuating naturally as shown in those graphs. You need to pay attention better.




Well the article I posted has a graph that shows a steady rise over the last 2 centuries. I dont know what "natural fluctuation" is for this kind of period. As you obviously, do perhaps you would be good enough to share?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3246459 - 10/12/04 08:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Well it seems your graphs differ from his graphs which differ from my graph which differ from the graphs discussed in the other thread. My point is that the graphs that he has shown as concrete proof and discounted in the last thread were taken from one spot in the Antarctica. Why should anyone with a shred of common sense take that as conrete proof? Why is it that some numbnut in your article is taking CO2 readings on top of a volcano in a spot that has the most active volcanoes in the world? Ofcourse your going to get higher CO2 readings in Hawaii. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Quote:

I dont know what "natural fluctuation" is for this kind of period.




The ice ages that we have experiences are natural flucuations in heating and cooling (which span thousands of years), or was that caused by man as well?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246460 - 10/12/04 08:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Beats the one location sampling that you have provided and mention in the previous thread. You claim to be able to tell what 98% of the earth's CO2 is with a core sampling taken from Antarctica. Sounds to me that your graph fails to mention how different areas of the world have different CO2 levels. This has been discussed and you still talk is if it is fact, mind blowing.





stop lying inny. where did i say mine was from one location? where did i say it was just from core sampling in antartica?



reconstructed from proxy data (tree rings, corals, ice cores, and historical records). The line shows the 50-year average, the grey region the 95% confidence limit in the annual data. From years 1860 to 2000 are shown variations in observations of globally and annually averaged surface temperature from the instrumental record; the line shows the decadal average. From years 2000 to 2100 projections of globally averaged surface temperature are shown for the six illustrative SRES scenarios and IS92a using a model with average climate sensitivity. The grey region marked ?several models all SRES envelope? shows the range of results from the full range of 35 SRES scenarios in addition to those from a range of models with different climate sensitivities.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246464 - 10/12/04 08:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the line shows the decadal average.




you see? one decade of data is so insignificant that they just average it.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246477 - 10/12/04 08:44 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

you did in our last discussion which prompted the satellite temperature graph, no need to lie.

That graph can predict the future? hm, why can't the temperature be predicted a week from now but you claim it to be a fact that a hundred years from now it will be hotter? Didn't you say before we would just have a climate change?

you change your stance when it suits you. In our last discussion you got mad because I claimed that the evidence doesn't show the earth heating up, then you said that global warming doesn't involve the earth heating up but rather climate changes. Then I mentioned the climate in my area, then you said it's not local (whatever that means). Now you're sticking to the assertion that it is in fact warming up. Michigan for example has been cooler for the last 2 years then it has in a long time. for the month of January or February (i forget) we set the record for the coldest month on record. I realize that this is local but if your evidence is true then there should be no way that this should happen, or are you now arguing climate changes? You are the one who is switching their stance. Climate changes, like global warming and cooling are a product of natural fluctuations, nothing new. There has been no evidence that this is caused by man. That is what I've always said. you know this and you still deny it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246486 - 10/12/04 08:55 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

your inability to understand the intense complexities of atomospheric sciences is not a sign that their predictions are therefore wrong. you've been throughly pwn3d in this debate. im out.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246512 - 10/12/04 09:18 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

you're inability to use common sense is what will make your side look like chicken little. You've not answered basic questions and avoid those that ask you to use common sense. Maybe you can ask your friend and she/he can tell you what to think.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246813 - 10/12/04 12:41 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Everyone just buy a car with decent mileage, try and use recycled paper goods and write to your government officials telling them you want to see more research on global warming (my department could use more funds). We'd be moving in the right direction if people were willing to do this.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Gijith]
    #3247081 - 10/12/04 01:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'd be happy if regular polution laws were enforced. If that were the case we wouldn't be having this discussion.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Amazon Portable Greenhouse, Scales

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Global warming the ultimate solution Luddite 761 6 03/31/07 04:45 PM
by FrenchSocialist
* Global warming nothing but pretend communist conspiracy
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
question_for_joo 9,891 112 08/31/04 09:48 PM
by Gijith
* Global Warming: The Final Proof?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
GazzBut 7,880 91 03/12/05 03:27 PM
by Psychoactive1984
* The last word on global warming
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Luddite 9,253 83 12/18/09 05:01 PM
by GI_Luvmoney
* Global Warming May Have More Current Affects than Previously Thought Ravus 631 4 01/16/05 11:53 AM
by greensnake316
* Good article on global warming.
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
luvdemshrooms 4,317 86 06/10/03 06:56 AM
by Innvertigo
* Last gasp of the global warming deniers
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Alex213 12,294 136 02/09/07 02:34 PM
by gluke bastid
* A look at global warming.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
luvdemshrooms 12,627 119 02/27/04 03:07 AM
by EchoVortex

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,858 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.051 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 15 queries.