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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Gijith]
    #3245640 - 10/12/04 12:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't ozone created by the action of sunlight on the upper atmosphere? Now what happens during the winter in the Antarctica?

If most ozone is created at the equator and moves toward the poles, where would you expect to find the least amount (realizing that ozone is unstable and has a short half life)?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (10/12/04 12:58 AM)


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245679 - 10/12/04 01:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Right, sunlight creates 03. As far as I know, two things are currently happening during an Anarctic Winter: 1) Less sunlight=less ozone created (though the amount created in the Summer is pretty small). 2) Stratospheric clouds form (which is rare) and these clouds concentrate many of the pollutants in the air, which speeds up the breaking down of ozone.

You'd find the most ozone at the poles. Which is where most of it currently is.


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OfflinePsilygirl
cyan goddess
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245802 - 10/12/04 01:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

ozone has little do to with global warming, it has to do with UV intensity and higher cancer rates. ozone depletion actually has a cooling effect in the atmosphere


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3245925 - 10/12/04 01:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If it was polarized.. or moved to due to the properties of heat, it would naturally settle down at the bottom... where there is less heat, the heat at the north pole during the summer months would disperse and dissolve the ozone... bringing it to the lower hemisphere and southern poles. besides, with how cold it is there, it would stay....

Now if overall there was a shift in global 03 levels, with a rise in co2, that would mean that there would be a higher concentration of molecules... adding to the overall thickness of our atmosphere... increasing the heat.

Our sun will continue to grow..expanding towards the earth. As that will be one natural process we cannot control...




I dont see how anyone can argue, regardless of the warming trends that occur because of greenhouse gasses, that there is no need to adress this issue, or that it isnt happening. Thats like saying spousal abuse is just "talk of the devil".

I remember writing my research paper over this, and i couldnt realize enough how much more effort needs to be put into strengthening the science community and government towards the issue... But like you mentioned in your thread about capitalism and here with the scientific reports... its hard to form that bond because of various vested interests within this issue.

Bush proposed tax cuts for people with Hummers... You know how many hummers drive around DFW all the time? You know how many people drive superbly large SUV's... you knwo what kind of people these are? You see bush on their back winshield... They dont CARE!

Motor vehicles cause much more than just Air pollution... oil that drips from the cars drips on to the road... and poisons its surrounding environment when its washed off.

To anyone thinks that people in big corporations are going to tell people the absolute truth and the direness of the issue... are severely mis led... For they will mis lead everyone so they can secure their economic future...

Which brings the main issue... what is the cost?

Long term... Short Term?

Take your pick.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/26/03
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3246212 - 10/12/04 04:15 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I may be mistaken but I doubt it, but hasn't the hole in the ozone over Antartica been shrinking up pretty nicely?

And yeah.. we certainly COULD have a dramatic effect on the earth's climate. Whether we have yet or not is debatable. Whether we have and have to a point we cannot reverse the damage yet is also debatable.

Honestly I'm pretty optimistic about it. We're not going to totally break our dependence on oil for a long time, but fuel efficiency in cars is improving dramatically. gas/electric hybrids are getting 50+mpg, and that's using a traditional piston engine.. I'd say there's a lot of room to expand to say, a diesel turbine/electric hybrid, like trains now use (in fact I do wonder why we haven't seen that yet, it seems like it'd be the best solution.. less machinery to reduce the mechanical efficiency since everything's already spinning, the bit of lag in the turbine made up for by the instant response of the electric motors.. but hey, I'm not an auto engineer, I'm just some guy ;D )


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3246283 - 10/12/04 05:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I may be mistaken but I doubt it, but hasn't the hole in the ozone over Antartica been shrinking up pretty nicely?





yes it has, thanks to international policymakers responding to scientists and banning almost all use of CFCs in the Montreal Protocol (how did this thread become completely about ozone depletion? im still waiting for inny to find me a roughly comparable study proving---well proving whichever point it is exactly that he's trying to make)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246340 - 10/12/04 06:48 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

which part am i claiming is fact?




Global warming, the thing i've been saying througout this thread.

Quote:

You keep arguing two different points: are you arguing that the globe is warming but that its natural and not caused by humans or are you arguing that it is not warming at all?




Nice try ace. I've said from the beginning and throughout the old thread that I believe the Earth heats and cools naturally, hence the increased CO2 levels in the 12th century which none of your studies have given an answer for.

This argument is being changed to satisfy what point you are trying to make. In one breath from the old thread the heating is caused by man, then when we show examples that the Earth is not in fact heating like described we get told that the Glogal warming isn't in fact warming at all. You've people have me scratching my head wondering what the fuck is your point.

Quote:

no it is I who have provided a very credible peer-reviewed source. you have provided precisely fuck-all.




yet global temperatures haven't changed to back up your claim. It's sad that no matter how much you scream and say how many are on your side, the evidence just doesn't back up you claim that the Earth is warming at all.

Quote:

right, thats exactly what i said. 'find afoaf who knows someone', no its my closest friend who studies that, has taken a course specifically on climate change at the leading european university in climate change reseach and in fact is currently writing her dissertation on climate change perceptions.




excuse me if I don't believe you. I can say that I have people that study the opposite but wouldn't be worth much.

Quote:

she assures me that the question of whether the globe is warming or not is no longer a question in the scientific community (it was up until a few years ago, but it is no longer).




well in that case, I mean if she says it's happening then I must change my whole outlook. I have a friend that thinks your friend is making shit up.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 07:07 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3246353 - 10/12/04 07:03 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I dont see how anyone can argue, regardless of the warming trends that occur because of greenhouse gasses, that there is no need to adress this issue, or that it isnt happening.




noone said that we should ignore natural weather trends and if man can contibute to these issues. I'm stating that to just come out and say for sure that we are globally warming and leave it at that is BS. They use this as a scare tactic to push a specific subject a certain direction. I say study the hell out of it and come up with different views from different researchers, if man is contributing (i don't believe they are to the extent most here do) then I'll be on board. I, myself don't litter, I recycle and contribute my time and money to conservation, not because i'm scared that the Earth is heating (which it is not) but rather it makes the environment I live in, clean.

Quote:

Thats like saying spousal abuse is just "talk of the devil".




terribble analogy

Quote:

Bush proposed tax cuts for people with Hummers... You know how many hummers drive around DFW all the time? You know how many people drive superbly large SUV's... you knwo what kind of people these are? You see bush on their back winshield... They dont CARE!

Motor vehicles cause much more than just Air pollution... oil that drips from the cars drips on to the road... and poisons its surrounding environment when its washed off.

To anyone thinks that people in big corporations are going to tell people the absolute truth and the direness of the issue... are severely mis led... For they will mis lead everyone so they can secure their economic future...





you're going off topic, noone is implying that there is no pollution nor am I implying that we should ignore the fact that pollution is present. It seems many do not want to seperate the issue.

Quote:

Which brings the main issue... what is the cost?

Long term... Short Term?

Take your pick.




the main issue is global warming, is it truth or myth that man has contributed to it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246379 - 10/12/04 07:29 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

not because i'm scared that the Earth is heating (which it is not)




Still not a shred of evidence from you Inny. How do you know this? Please dont refer to the "old thread" again.

Quote:

the main issue is global warming, is it truth or myth that man has contributed to it.




Id say the main issue is establishing whether global warming is occuring or not.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246384 - 10/12/04 07:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

yet global temperatures haven't changed to back up your claim.








i again challenge you to find me a recent study of similar weight as the ipcc with the consensus of many scientists and peer-reviewed. i'm betting you won't.


and 'global warming' is a misleading term (which is why it's the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change). some parts of the globe will cool, but the overall effect will be warming, which is why the sea level will rise and island/costal settlements will be lost.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: GazzBut]
    #3246385 - 10/12/04 07:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't make the claim that Global warming exists, the burden of proof is on you.

Old thread.

Quote:

Id say the main issue is establishing whether global warming is occuring or not.




which you've provided no evidence to back that *ahem* article up.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246389 - 10/12/04 07:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm betting that graph is taken from one spot on the earth even though it has been proven that by using ise cores and other methods give an estimate, albeit a very inaccurate, measure of temperature. Sorry.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246395 - 10/12/04 07:44 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)





Nice try with that graph, it was posted in the old thread and you failed to prove your point. ooooh loook I have graphs, big deal.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 07:51 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246417 - 10/12/04 08:03 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246423 - 10/12/04 08:06 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

you gotta be kidding me, you would laugh your ass off if i came to you with a 12-YEAR LONG graph based on one type of measurement from one person edit: and its 14 years old..  do you even have a source that that's been peer reviewed? 

and here you go again, sometimes you're saying the earth is naturally warming and now you're arguing that it isn't warming at all :wtf:


Edited by TaoTeChing (10/12/04 08:20 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Evolving]
    #3246428 - 10/12/04 08:10 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the seasonally averaged surface air temperature in Antarctica has decreased by 0.7 degrees Celsius per decade. Strange, huh?




As has been pointed out by Psilygirl this is related to ozone depletion but dont get too excited yet...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246430 - 10/12/04 08:11 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246432 - 10/12/04 08:12 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you gotta be kidding me, you would laugh your ass off if i came to you with a 12-YEAR LONG graph based on one type of measurement from one person.




Beats the one location sampling that you have provided and mention in the previous thread. You claim to be able to tell what 98% of the earth's CO2 is with a core sampling taken from Antarctica. Sounds to me that your graph fails to mention how different areas of the world have different CO2 levels. This has been discussed and you still talk is if it is fact, mind blowing.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/12/04 08:18 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Tao]
    #3246434 - 10/12/04 08:15 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

and here you go again, sometimes you're saying the earth is naturally warming and now you're arguing that it isn't warming at all




Why are you arguing with yourself? I've always said that the Earth is flucuating naturally as shown in those graphs. You need to pay attention better.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Re: Surprise CO2 rise may speed up global warming [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3246437 - 10/12/04 08:19 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I've always said that the Earth is flucuating naturally as shown in those graphs. You need to pay attention better.




Well the article I posted has a graph that shows a steady rise over the last 2 centuries. I dont know what "natural fluctuation" is for this kind of period. As you obviously, do perhaps you would be good enough to share?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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