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InvisibleMOTH
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Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things?
    #3240778 - 10/10/04 10:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I have a hard time figuring out why I've been reading that shamans abstain from sex/spices/etc, especially before using an entheogen. 

Why is this? 

I ask because I am going to be taking an entheogen this weekend, and I am finding it difficult to fast properly and not have sex. 

:confused:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3240975 - 10/10/04 10:50 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It really depends on the culture. In Amazonian cultures abstinence is common, whereas in Native American cultures it was not as prevelant. The cultures that did this did so because it was believed that it was a method of retaining personal power. I feel that sharing in this manner is a way of gaining personal power for both people involved as long as it is for the correct reason(love). Fasting is good to deter nausia if you are so inclined. Skipping the meal before ingesting the entheogen is sufficient. Many cultures believed fasting was a form of purification. Fasting and abstinence is not universal in shamanism so don't feel that you need to follow this unless you feel a deep personal reason to. It is good to show respect for the entheogen by maintaining a proper setting and attitude. These are the most important things. Note: If you are taking Ayahuasca fasting is highly recomended due to ingestion of MAO inhibitors. Avoid cheese, nuts, beer, and other foods with high tryptamine content just before, during, and just after the experience. Ingesting the wrong types of tryptamines while under the influence of an MAO inihibitor such as harmaline can (though not likely)cause a cerebro-vascular accident due to the blood pressure spiking suddenly. Harmaline is a short term MAO inhibitor so the danger is very small.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (10/11/04 12:27 AM)

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3241734 - 10/11/04 01:52 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

If you're aiming to get in touch with the spirit it helps to first diminish the "background noise" of physical awareness so that you can more easily tune in to spiritual channels. Fasting is a way of doing this. What happens is that the magnetic ties between your physical and spiritual bodies are loosened allowing the spirit to roam free.

Abstaining from sex allows you to conserve (and redeploy) the energy that would otherwise be lost while indulging in everyones favorite aerobic activity.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Offlinelovelight
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3241742 - 10/11/04 01:59 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The times and type of abstainence in shamanic circles do vary. One of the most important times to abstain from sex in the South American cultures is whilst training to become a shaman. This can last for a few months to a year. It is believed to enhance the shaman's powers. Those who are most relentless and endure these types of boundaries are believed to have the best ability in shamanic practice. This can be for the 'good' eg. for healing, curing purposes, or 'evil', eg. casting spells to hurt or kill, if the shaman is a bewitcher. The reasons for this are to purify the body, and to give the ability to focus on the intent, as sex at this time can be seen as a distraction, wasting the body's energy and motivation. With the taking of Ayahuasca, vomitting and sometimes diarrhea are seen as positive release of toxins, so it's also related to that idea of cleansing.

As for you though, I agree with what Huehuecoyotl said:
"don't feel that you need to follow this unless you feel a deep personal reason to"

Enjoy your experience!  :grin:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3242042 - 10/11/04 05:47 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Unless it is sex-magick being employed, every magickal tradition that I have learned about is sexually abstinent, including the 'white magick' of the Catholic Transubstantiation of Bread and Wine into Body and Blood. The sexual energy which enters the Human does so at the Root Center (the anal-genital complex). The solitary practitioner must 'sublimate' (just like the Freudian term) the Sexual Energy into the next Center at the Solar Plexus, which is the Power Center (Manipura Chakra in Indian Yoga, and same Indo-European root for our word Manipulation). So in this instance (unlike Transubstantiation which raises the Root Center energy [Eros] to the Heart Center [Agape]), Sex Energy is utilized in the service of Power (the Magickal Will). This is the theory and practice behind sexual abstinence - the storage of psychic energy.

The use of an "Entheogen" which was your word of choice over, say 'psychedelic,' suggests to me that your intention is for spiritual/mystical usage which concern higher Centers but may enjoin the Sexual in Heart, Throat or Head Centers if used in the service of these higher motivational Centers, as in Tantric Yoga/Holy Matrimony/Hierosgamos. Orthodox priests, Tibetan Lamas and Protestant clergy do not necessarily abstain from sex except during spiritual retreat (deep, independent contemplation).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: lovelight]
    #3242077 - 10/11/04 06:11 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It is curious that the Amazonian tribes almost all practiced sexual abstinence during shamanic training and before shamanic undertakings, while in North America it was relatively uncommon. Fasting before a ritual that involves entheogens, though, is very common.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3242217 - 10/11/04 07:57 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Fasting, on top of helping with nausea, deprives your brain of nutrients and causes its function as "reducing valve" (blocking out that which is not specifically biologically useful) to lessen. As was said, having sex puts too much focus on that area of the body, and restricts the passage of "energy" to the higher and more important body centers located (the energy apparently begins at the base of the spine). This energy is also obstructed by, for example, not sitting up straight.


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Nothing is sacred!
Life is tough--thick-skinned--impenetrable--so that it can function--work--create--dance--live!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3242223 - 10/11/04 08:02 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

when working with things "not of this world" it perhaps does not suit to have relations with people:
many become hermits and benefit from the separation from the madding crowds.
sexual competition can be very disruptive and a dominant male can become a crushing adversary to a shaman whose actions have disturbed tribal stability and status.
the emotional involvement with sexual partners can also be very draining, family psychodrama can be evoked and replayed.
but.
IMO
spiritual pursuits are better made in the milieu of life.
little distractions transcended make meditation stronger.
or they can become the object of meditation.
relations that are cultivated with awareness become the
mountain that the hermit can seek refuge in with integrity.
so
I think the old warnings can be used to heighten awreness, but the cautions are mostly to prevent confusion for weak or beginning shaman students. good concentration always thrives on distraction.
everything becomes a learning opportunity.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3242438 - 10/11/04 10:10 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"little distractions transcended make meditation stronger"

Very true :smile:. This is why one should not, in my opinion, get used to only meditating in perfect conditions (silence, darkness, still body, sitting, ect.) but rather attempt to bring the awareness into the actions of everyday life. The harder the strugle, the stronger the victory :laugh:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: deff]
    #3242524 - 10/11/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Agreed. While many religious and shamanic traditions hold with abstinence and fasting combined with an ascetic lifestyle, there are others that do not stress these things so much. While many worldly hangups can be distracting, being in need of the bodies proper function is distracting also. There is a time and place for depriving oneself, such as during a true vision quest, for feeling close to the spirit on a day to day basis being in a deprived state is distracting in and of itself. Most people who wish to follow a shamanic path, such as myself, do not have illusions of becoming a full shaman, but merely wish to improve their life and take responsibility for their own spiritual growth. For these people extreme methods have little value.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3242559 - 10/11/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

what is a entheogen?


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Disclaimer!?

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Gomp]
    #3242572 - 10/11/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

A hallucinogenic drug...used for spiritual purpose.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3242598 - 10/11/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

the word ethneogen means 'generates god within' (thnx markos)

"It is curious that the Amazonian tribes almost all practiced sexual abstinence during shamanic training and before shamanic undertakings, while in North America it was relatively uncommon. Fasting before a ritual that involves entheogens, though, is very common. "

Perhaps it has something to do with the relatively higher use of ethneogens in amazonian shamanic practice whereas in north american tribes ordeals of fasting, deprivation and pain were more commonly employed?

not sure why they would have seen sexual abstinence as beneficial to the ethneogen experience though


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3242765 - 10/11/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks everyone who replied, I really appreciate such thoughtful answers.  I originally intended to go a full week with fasting/abstinence before my experience this weekend, but upon thinking about it and reading the responses here, I will probably just do so three days before and then three days afterwards.  I feel that is good to start with, and then possibly extend the fasting/abstinance as I gain more experience doing it. 

thanks again :heart:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3242805 - 10/11/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

now when you say 'fasting' what exactly do you mean?

im not sure if 3 days with no food at all before tripping is a good idea, youd be so ravenous and weak by the time the day rolled around


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Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3242822 - 10/11/04 12:21 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

By "fasting" I mean not eating any spices, fatty foods, meat, and taking special care that I don't ingest any MAO inhibitors.  I guess fasting isn't exactly the right word for it. 

Sorry I wasn't more clear.  :sun:

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3242910 - 10/11/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

just wondering, and in that case great idea. When i trip i always 'fast' on water, green tea, and fresh fruits and veggies, usually just for the day of the trip, but ive never dealt with the super powerd plant allies that your planing to dance with, so an extra few days would be wise.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineDroz
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3243110 - 10/11/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

So the purpose of fasting is to remove the thought of food from your brain so your brain can open up to other things. So to the point of using an entheogen is to reach a point of focus. I understand the removal of the ego to communicate but I haven't really put an effort into communication with a human entitiy. My focus was on the monkey. I indeed communicated with the monkey and what I call monkeyism. I learned how the monkey considers the tree to be his domain and I see that everything after that is based on how i've progressed back from the stages of the monkey. I'm not sure how it happened.

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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3243141 - 10/11/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

put on your dancing shoes.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #3243643 - 10/11/04 03:05 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I have eaten foods containing tryptamines (cheese, peanut butter, etc...)within 3 hours of the conclusion of a Ayahuasca experience. 3 days is not really necessary if you are worried about the MAO inhibiting properties of harmaline. Harmaline is a short term MAO inhibitor. Prescribtion MAO inhibitors require MUCH more care, with activity up to 2 weeks after ingestion. If, however, your fast is for spiritual purposes ignore my post.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3244239 - 10/11/04 05:43 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

excelent posts all around. just to throw in an opinion,if you're doing this for spiritual purposes, unless your will is solid the fasting and abstinence is probably a good idea.

will is just as important in spiritual pursuits as anything else.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3244813 - 10/11/04 08:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

i think the main thing about these kind of preperations for a trip is that they ingrain on the mind that this isnt just for fun, its serious. Everytime you skip a meal of turn down sex or whatever you think 'why am i doing this?' and then you remember its because you want a truly enlightening experience, and by preparing like that your more likely to have on, thats been my experience.

The downside tho is that when you do so much building up the trip itself is often a nervous affair, you want it to be so perfect and your sort of worried about it going bad...


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Offline3eyes
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: lovelight]
    #3244818 - 10/11/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

the last thing you need is some one's negative energy clogged to your astral body.

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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #5270594 - 02/06/06 05:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

In my opinion, fasting and abstinence clear the mind and open it for learning. Too much food or sex can drown one's mental & physical energy and power.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MOTH]
    #5270647 - 02/06/06 06:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

To commune with the transcendent, it helps to avoid the distractions of the physical world.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5270852 - 02/06/06 06:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
To commune with the transcendent, it helps to avoid the distractions of the physical world.




Unless your model of transcendence includes the sexual domain as part of the transcendent experience. The Kabbalistic model seeks to (alchemically) join 'the Moon' (Yesod) with 'the Sun' (Tiphereth). It is a 'Hierosgamos' - a sacred marriage. Sexual intercourse on Friday night - the Jewish Sabbath - draws the Shekinah, the indwelling feminine aspect of G-D to the marriage bed (according to the tradition). The Union should include the Yesodic climax as well as the Tipherethic love - loins and heart - eros and agape. Lightning path downward, serpentine path upward.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5272673 - 02/07/06 09:20 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to disagree with the abstinence and fasting style of shamans in the past. I've tried many different "rituals" before tripping, and I dislike both of these.

Fasting
I've noticed that fasting can cause your visualization ability to gain strength pretty quickly...after 18 hours or so. However, the mindset seems to be slightly more delusional than normal consciousness. Besides, the urge to eat will eventually interrupt you. I don't feel that eating blocks "spiritual activities". I had my very first conscious astral projection after eating a massive steak (probably because I was so relaxed). However, fasting to prevent nausea seems like a beneficial action.

Abstinence
There are two simple reasons why I disagree with abstinence before tripping. First of all, to me it's better to go ahead and get it out of your system, so that it doesn't interrupt you. Secondly, you are very relaxed after sex. One of the main authors on AP even recommends you use sex to help you prepare for an astral projection. To me, it works good for tripping too.

But I would have to say that on most trips, I am not worried about eating or sex. To each their own.  :thumbup:


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:poison: :poison: :poison:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5273885 - 02/07/06 03:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The Huichol Indians abstain from sex even today during their pilgrimage to Wirikuta to pick the sacred Peyote. My Lady and I do not indulge the sexual energy which may arise at the outset of an entheogenic excursion because it is fleeting. Soon, the energy begins to rise to and pool in the Solar Plexus Center which then needs to be coaxed up and out to higher Centers with a few Hatha Yoga asanas and/or pranayamas. Our goal is to experience the higher Centers more fully and not involve the sexual Center until we 'come down' into our bodies and lower Centers at the end. We are not feeling particularly erotic anyway at 'lift-off' even if the sexual Center is lit up.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5275842 - 02/07/06 11:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Because they feel that their entire organism is making love to the physical enviroment, it is not concentrated in the genital area.

I don't think sex is an "abstraction". Whatever transcendence you speak of is just as much as one. Love making and childbirth bear resemblance to the big bang, exploding out of the present.

Edited by rfus80 (02/08/06 12:03 AM)

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InvisibleFungusMan
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: rfus80]
    #5276733 - 02/08/06 09:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

As a neo-shaman, I do fast on certain high days. I also try to abstain from ejaculation altogether. Why do we do this? Because of the body's energy circuits. If you look into it, 9/10 male human religious figures (a.k.a.Jesus, Buddha, etc...) are thought of as being celibate.

This coincides with the belief that men exude energy, whilst women draw theres from outside sources. Ever notice that men usually wanna fall asleep after sex, while alot of women get a energy rush and clean the house or something?

When a man denies himself of ejaculation, he allows the energy to travel througout the body, rather than having it stop at the groin chakra. The main role of a shaman is to become one with nature, but yet elevate himself past the animalistic behavior of the wild, and to connect with the green world.

How many beliefs share the statement, "To discipline thy body is to feed thy soul"?

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OfflineBooby
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Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: FungusMan]
    #5277026 - 02/08/06 11:16 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FungusMan said:
This coincides with the belief that men exude energy, whilst women draw theres from outside sources. Ever notice that men usually wanna fall asleep after sex, while alot of women get a energy rush and clean the house or something?





Something from my notes:



http://www.antiaging.com/cyberhealth/CyberHealth_21.html

III. THE ROLE OF OXYTOCIN

A fourth "love" chemical that plays a very important and wonderful part in relationships is oxytocin ? a peptide composed of nine amino acids. It is responsible for stimulating uterine contractions during birth, triggering the "let-down" reflex during nursing, and giving new moms that mothering, nurturing feeling towards their baby. However, it also plays a very important role in romantic love.

Often called the "cuddling chemical," oxytocin makes both men and women calmer and more sensitive to the feelings of others. Cuddling and calming are actually Phase II of oxytocin?s effect. Phase I is its power to arouse. In women it signals orgasm by stimulating uterine contractions. Women may be more capable of having multiple or whole-body orgasms as a result of oxytocin overload. In men, moderate concentrations of oxytocin facilitate both erection and ejaculation. Its production is cued by a lover?s voice, a gentle touch, a familiar fragrance, or a certain look. The more partners touch one another, especially the breasts, the more oxytocin is produced resulting in increased arousal and a better likelihood of achieving orgasm.

Other oxytocinogenous zones are the earlobes, lips and nose. Following the ecstasy, oxytocin promotes the desire to cuddle and may even play a role in inducing high quality REM sleep. (Personally, I think oxytocin is a bit sexist ? it makes women want to cuddle and men want to sleep!)


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Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Booby]
    #5278022 - 02/08/06 03:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

wow! what an old thread but thanks for dragging it up, some great stuff in there. That stuff about oxytocin is fascinating, explains alot of things!

i always wonder with my partner, like i dont really think about em when hes away, but once hes physically around again its like oh yeah i really like you... probably cuz im getting the chemicals then.

I also noted after cuddling/sex i have some crazy fun dreams...

coolness.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
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Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5278512 - 02/08/06 05:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This is an Old thread?

Oh, so it is.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

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OfflineNewAgeDiciple
Follower of One

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 153
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: Booby]
    #5282747 - 02/09/06 05:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I liked it.


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Smile, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle -philo of Alexandria

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InvisibleDmonikal
Bareback up inthis neden
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Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 474
Re: Why do shaman's abstain from sex and other things? [Re: NewAgeDiciple]
    #5283063 - 02/09/06 07:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The answer is simply purity. The more thought thrown to the wind, the closer you are.


--------------------
Give your money or your life
Take 'em both for all I care
Dump your bullets right here

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