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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Transcending Fear
    #3232817 - 10/08/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was chattin with someone in PM's about this and the process of transcending through the deepest darkest fears we have, about the unknown self. This includes, the love and intelligence we are as well.

They asked if it had to be a fearfilled experience to do this. Good question and I thought about it. At first you would think, well of course it's scary because you are facing and moving through fear energy. Then i came up with this anaology that says, it doesn't have to be a scary thing.

take two people who have both packed their own parachute. They did it themselves and know they can trust completely that it will work. They both had extensive training for how to pull the rip cord and make a safe landing. They can trust themselves in this as well.

Now, take them both to the edge of a cliff high enough to do a parachute jump from. One guy is excited and rushing with adrenaline. he can't wait to take the leap and free fall.

The other one is paralysed with fear. He can't bring himself to run and jump.

Whats the difference between the two?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3232915 - 10/08/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have been in that situation you described many times, just in a helicopter instead of on a cliff. I skydived for about 2 years and there were 2 times that I chickened out at the last minute, I jumped a total of about 20 times. I consider myself to have substantial fear of heights, but I have yet to encounter a fear that absolutely paralyzes me. Every time I jumped I was deathly scared and exhilerated at the same time, but the fear did win out a time or two. My experiences in the Army taught me that everyone feels fear in dangerous situations, but some step forward anyway.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3232948 - 10/08/04 02:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for sharing that. What do you think the difference is between one who is excited to jump and can't wait, thriving on the adrenaline and the one who is highly apprehensive filled with fear?

Would you say that any fear is rational or irrational, providing your chute is garanteed to work?

I'm curious to explore what the people have about them who don't give way to fear versus people who do.

Does it come down to trusting the self?

Does it come down to fears of dying and what are those about?

I don't know the answers. I know if we can come up with some ideas, then we have some tools to work with in imagination for overcoming fears so when faced with them in a drug trip, dream time or waking life, we can better move through them and maybe even enjoy the experience.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3232972 - 10/08/04 02:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

While we are at it, lets touch on phobias. My daughter has an on off fear of heights.

Where does this come from?

Some times I wonder if it's related to the "proverbial fall of man" the letting go from a place that was safe and secure into the unknown or falling into forgetfullness.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3233032 - 10/08/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Would you say that any fear is rational or irrational, providing your chute is garanteed to work?"

Nothing in our lives is guaranteed including this. Fear is completely rational in my view, but some things can override it. When I first jumped, at age 17, I was really deadly afraid, BUT the jump master was this really pretty 24 year old girl who had over 1000 jumps. I hesitated when she said go, but then I thought I would rather die than appear to be a wimp in front of this girl. I know it is stupid that my pride could lead me to death but I was only a kid. When I jumped I felt that I had passed through caring for life or death at that moment. After I was out the fear was gone all I felt was this calm bliss that was interupted by the chute opening. After this I was scared at every jump, but once I was out the fear was transcended. Would I do it now? Hell, no! I am a big chicken now. I have always had and still have a deathly fear of heights.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3233083 - 10/08/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That was funny, honest and human. I use to want to jump from a plane and now, I don't know if I could. I think I didn't care about dying before and loved the adrenaline rushes of living on the edge. Now that I have a daughter, I feel like I have to care to keep alive to care for her.

How is it you think ALL fears are rational? Anyone can answer this. I love the topic of rationality versus irrationality related to fear.


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OfflineWhiteRussian
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3233094 - 10/08/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Whats the difference between the two? "

They both feel a certain intesity, tho with their own decision on how to react to that situation. Maybe the first time that person heard about jumping, his FIRST emotion was nervousness, unlike the other (who was happy/confident at the moment) thought this is fun, not a big deal. Then overtime these two would start to have the same reactions on the thought of jumping (refering back to the first emotion) Overtime it grows with anticipation and there you go, one is exited, the other is scared.....Thats how it is with everything, its an illusion afterall :smile:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3233119 - 10/08/04 02:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You have seen the bracelets that say WWJD (What Would Jesus Do), well until I was about 30 my credo was What Would Jim Morrison Do. I didn't even think about my safety. I am cautious now...maybe even too cautious. Not all fears are rational, I meant that the fear of things that potentially endanger one's safety are rational. Anyway, skydiving is supposed to be quite safe, and while I will never do it again it is an experience that everyone would appreciate. After it is over you get an adrenaline high, similar to a low intensity acid trip, that lasts most of the day.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: WhiteRussian]
    #3233134 - 10/08/04 02:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That was an interesting take on this russian, you see programming that follows through.

The lesson in that would be watch the first thoughts you program yourself with when something new and different comes along???

I have a question for you hue. You mentioned your brother who sees aliens with ray guns shooting thoughts into his head. Now, modern psychology calls this an irrational fear because they can't see these things and tell him they arn't there and they labeled him a paranoid schizophrenic.

But considering he sees them indistinguisably from what the rest of us see to be physically appearant, wouldn't that make them just as real to him and his fears actually rational for him?

What if he is just clairvoyant to the point of being inable to distinguish between this realm and others that may actually exists?

Where space dragon resides in the astral plane aka 4th dimension, the war of good and evil is taking place, people find themselves there while tripping or in dream time as well as waking life.

How does one transcend those fears without it being a fear filled experience was the question asked to me that inspired this post.

I wonder about this stuff and have my own thoughts, but want to hear others.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/08/04 03:02 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: WhiteRussian]
    #3233181 - 10/08/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think this divergence starts much earlier, like in early childhood.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3233258 - 10/08/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

hmmmmmmmm, now I am wondering the cause of divergence.

That was funny about, What would Jim Morrison do? I saw the movie the Doors with Val Kilmer on TV the other night again. It kicks ass!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineWhiteRussian
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3233261 - 10/08/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i try seperating thoughts from emotions.......most people think "this thought makes me feel this way" but the same thought can be seen differently throught different emotions.

"The lesson in that would be watch the first thoughts you program yourself with when something new and different comes along??? "

yes, unless its been overwritten by a stronger one, (over time), althought its always your decision on how you want to feel about it.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: WhiteRussian]
    #3233283 - 10/08/04 03:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"You can take a thought and feel a lot of different ways about it"

Well isn't that the truth! Funny how someone will post a thought feeling one way and another generates another emotion from it based on their programming and confusion begins. We take it for granted others are feeling about the same thought as we feel and that is far from the case most of the time.

It does go to show how much flexibility there is for changing reaction via changing feeling.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3233311 - 10/08/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it is easy to transcend attitude, or some associated scheme of thought, and then apply some other - more "lofty" attitude;
also
it is a rewarding excercise to transcend one's attachments to something which blocks one's understanding, or progress...

fear as with hatred greed and delusion, needs more frequent and concerted attention. fear, because it engages adrenaline, is not easy to work with on the spot; but one can condition around it - learn to face it, learn to be unaffected by the cause of it.

fear is often connected with hatred, so that needs constant work as well.

eventually these defilements are not a big part of any program in the personality, and with some effort, they can be noticed and removed daily emerging weedlike as personality patterns in the dynamic gardens of our minds.

so I think "transcending fear", per se, is not an act you do, but the result of many acts you have done.

I knew an old jewish man, who really was not afraid of anything - he had been in the camps in germany in the second world war: when asked he said "I am unafraid because I am already dead."

personally I want to be unafraid while I am already still alive.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3233383 - 10/08/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Good stuff Red. I have to jet now, but want to comment later. thanks for adding it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3233729 - 10/08/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"it is a rewarding excercise to transcend one's attachments to something which blocks one's understanding, or progress..."

Quite So! Afterwards, I find myself laughing over what was all the hub bub about.

Great point you made about how fear working with adrenaline makes it not so easy to deal with on the spot! Thats why I suggested confronting "what if" fears when you feel safe and calm, in hypothetical situations where you can apply ration. Then, if and when confronted with an adrenaline producing situation, you have something to draw from quickly.

if you rehearse it enough in your mind, you will probably do enough programming that if the situation did come, you would cruise through it more easily.

Fear based hatred is some harsh stuff. However, ti is in the spectrum of human emotion. Another thing to explore is catch yourself if you ever say the word HATE aimed at something. Ask yourself what it is you are afraid of about what you hate. There's bound to be something and it will come down to beleif judgments you have about right wrong good and bad. This one to me is easy to deal with. hate has to do with rejection and so acceptance is an easy solution. What makes it easier is to understand what it is you hate out of fear. If you dig deep enough, you'll find nothing to fear there.

I like your anaology about weeding out the defective judgment beleifs in the garden of your mind.

"I knew an old jewish man, who really was not afraid of anything - he had been in the camps in germany in the second world war: when asked he said "I am unafraid because I am already dead."


The jewish mans story is good food for thought.

There is a lot to be said for dealing with fears "hypothetically" for responce reconditioning while you are not in a state of feeling threatened.

Take a fear and ask yourself What If? Whats the worst, come up with solutions ahead of time and then look for opportunies as well.

The biggest thing that helped me was to understand things I feared as being a part of myself. Somehow, that gives me a greater sense of being empowered in it.

The original question of, does transcending fears have to be a scary experience was a good one and after running through this much of this thread, the more my answer would be NO, not if you take preventitive action.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3233846 - 10/08/04 06:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How is it you think ALL fears are rational? Anyone can answer this. I love the topic of rationality versus irrationality related to fear.

I would consider a fear to be rational if there is significant danger and irrational if the danger is insignificant or non-existent (imaginary).

A fear of cobras I would consider rational and a fear of kingsnakes to be irrational.

Looked at another way, I would stipulate that a fear-reaction that is more damaging than the imagined negative outcome is definitely irrational. A steel worker freaking out over a bee and tumbling to his death in the process would be the victim of his own irrationality.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Swami]
    #3233875 - 10/08/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yes but faced with a cobra or a kingsnake
I would prefer to emit no wiff of adrenaline, and
I would prefer to conduct my self with
deliberate and sane safety.

how do we practice for that, swami?
surely not just by thinking about it.


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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: Swami]
    #3233913 - 10/08/04 06:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nice reply swami! Thats my take on fear regarding rational and irrational.

Keeping with the snake reference, where does the fear come from in one who is afraid of the non venoumous, fangless, little garden snake? I'd like more insight into where irrational fears come from.

What would be a proposed methodogy for that person to overcome the irrational fear, because a garden snake couldn't harm them if it wanted too. What would be the steps to take, for them to be able to hold one and actually enjoy the experience?

Whatever those methods are, they could be applied to other irrational fears.

I also would like to achieve what red is getting at. How can we find ourselves even faced with an actual threat, like the cobra and not succumb to a mad adrenaline rush that may produce irrational reaction that in itself could harm us.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Transcending Fear [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3234027 - 10/08/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What would be a proposed methodogy for that person to overcome the irrational fear, because a garden snake couldn't harm them if it wanted too. What would be the steps to take, for them to be able to hold one and actually enjoy the experience?

I am not experienced in this type of deprogramming, but I would imagine that the phobic should list all of the reasons why they detest/fear snakes and tackle each piece individually.

Phobic: "Well snakes are slimey - ooh!"

Swam: "No, snakes are cool and smooth to the touch and not at all slimey." *Guides phobics hand to actually feel the snake*

And so on...

I also would like to achieve what red is getting at. How can we find ourselves even faced with an actual threat, like the cobra and not succumb to a mad adrenaline rush that may produce irrational reaction that in itself could harm us.

I doubt that anyone could easily control their emotions without daily practice in less-threatening situations. Car cut you off in traffic? So what? How does rage change anything? It doesn't? Well then, drop it! Someone's post irritate you? What purpose does the irritation serve? None? Then drop it.

When I was robbed at gunpoint a few years back, I was in a heightened state of awareness, but was not strangled by fear. My mother who was with me at the time and worries constantly about everything, was overwhelmed. There was no residue with me after the event whereas my mother is more fearful than ever.

I am a fierce competitor at age 49 and held the racquetball challenge court for three hours this week against 8 challengers of all ages - one 30 years my junior; only leaving when I got tired. Part of this is due to conditioning and experience, but a larger part is not giving into fear. At one point I was down 12-2 and then ran 13 straight points after I cracked an opponent's head open. BTW this is not about boasting, but about a demonstration of Zen-thinking and staying in the moment; i.e. not projecting.

after I cracked an opponent's head open - psychologically not physically. Getting inside someone's head and getting them to play YOUR game is the key. When they end up raging, you know for sure that you have "cracked" them. This can only be done by maintaining one's center. This is true in sports or in a potentially life-threatening situation.

Bottom line: RESPOND to a situation don't REACT to it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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