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 fredthetree
Stranger
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 473
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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 Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU! 
#3232140 - 10/08/04 07:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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i. The Government; or any party; or any individual, does not have the right to dictate a person's thought.
ii. Hallucinogenic compounds have the ability to influence a person's manner of thinking.
iii. Many Governments restrict the use of hallucinogenic drugs.
Conclusion: Many Governments restrict our manner of thinking.
Second conclusion: Many Governments violate individual rights.
Edited by fredthetree (10/08/04 08:38 AM)
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
 
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: fredthetree]
#3232176 - 10/08/04 08:11 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Or
i. The government; or any party; or any individual does not have the right to dictate a person's thought.
ii. An individual dictates what he/she will do/think.
Conclusion: We often restrict our own manner of thinking and as a result we violate our own rights.
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OTD UNDERDOGS
Is attention your retarded heroin?
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fredthetree
Stranger
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 473
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Funguy]
#3232196 - 10/08/04 08:19 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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But that isn't about hallucinogenics, and so invalidates the title, and corrupts the entire statement. [!]
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: fredthetree]
#3232208 - 10/08/04 08:27 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Okay, how about:
i. Gov't, individual, yada yada yada.
ii. Hallucingens can influence the way we think.
Conlusion: Hallucingens influence our manner of thinking and as a result violates our rights.
(BTW, your conclusion did not have any bearing on hallucinogens either) 
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OTD UNDERDOGS
Is attention your retarded heroin?
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fredthetree
Stranger
Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 473
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Funguy]
#3232225 - 10/08/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good stuff 
i. balhblahblah
ii. Comunication alters thought and perception
Conclusion: Everyone violates the rights of everyone else 
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: fredthetree]
#3232234 - 10/08/04 08:41 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yep. What about:
i. We have no rights, only perceptions we give ourselves to make us feel better.
ii. Talking about rights is useless.
Conclusion: Stop talking about philosophy and get a job! He-he
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OTD UNDERDOGS
Is attention your retarded heroin?
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WhiteRussian
The Silence islouder then youthink
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 441
Loc: In your head :P
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Funguy]
#3234048 - 10/08/04 05:26 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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how about
i.blaaahahahaahaahbababgas
ii.blahahahalall
conclusion: blaahahabllagasg read my sig
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aaaaaahhhhh
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 Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: fredthetree]
#3234128 - 10/08/04 06:00 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Come on, man...you just get that one figured out? Everybody knows that!!!
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#3234159 - 10/08/04 06:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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not to mention thats only one of about a billion ways that the government influences our thoughts
the real question is, what should we do about?
how bout say fuck you to the government and do hallucinogenics anyways?
works for me
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Moonshoe]
#3234184 - 10/08/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is what I've been doing for 25 years now and I am doing fine.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU! [Re: fredthetree]
#3234195 - 10/08/04 06:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
fredthetree said:
i. The Government; or any party; or any individual, does not have the right to dictate a person's thought.
ii. Hallucinogenic compounds have the ability to influence a person's manner of thinking.
iii. Many Governments restrict the use of hallucinogenic drugs.
Conclusion: Many Governments restrict our manner of thinking.
Second conclusion: Many Governments violate individual rights.
*Every government
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Funguy
Homo SapiensEntheogenous
Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2,415
Loc: Muffy
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: WhiteRussian]
#3235012 - 10/08/04 10:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteRussian said:
how about
i.blaaahahahaahaahbababgas
ii.blahahahalall
conclusion: blaahahabllagasg read my sig
That is hilarious!
But supposedly our government is "run by the people." If the majority favored the responsible use of hallucinogens, would our gov't allow them? Maybe so, maybe not.
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OTD UNDERDOGS
Is attention your retarded heroin?
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BleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: An argument, re: hallucingenic compounds. [Re: Funguy]
#3235054 - 10/08/04 11:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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if only the majority knew.
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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU! [Re: fredthetree]
#3235157 - 10/08/04 11:50 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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hmmm..can a person or an individual control what you think?
think about it...
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
Edited by kaiowas (10/08/04 11:50 PM)
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU! [Re: fredthetree]
#3235237 - 10/09/04 12:31 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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What gets me is we pay them to do this to us. speaking of USA and Canada as thats all I can really relate to. We as a generall dont do shit, and seemingly dont care about shit. We get in our small groups (friends, family, this forum, certain tv shows etc..) and whine/bitch/converse, whatever one calls it, about our veiws. but we often do this with people who share basically the same view. at the end of the day what have we done? agreed with our peers. we still pay our stupidly high taxes and get royally fucked doing so.
The only force in human society larger than violence is currency. and we give lots of the latter to those who give us lots of the former.
I'm a total fucking hypocrite, but theres my hypocritcal veiw.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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jux
I'm better thanan STD!
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kaiowas]
#3235251 - 10/09/04 12:35 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said:
hmmm..can a person or an individual control what you think?
think about it...
you are the composite reality of a complex system influenced by, altered by, and composed of every experience encountered thus far. Therefore, every interaction affects how you think. Therefore, every person exerts some form of control over another person's thoughts. It's inescapable.
Freedom from outside oppression and control is therefore an ideal unobtainable. However, it is an ideal which many continue to strive for in the hopes that one day we, as a species, will be capable of perfect coexistance. One such way is to eliminate the influence of artificial constructs such as government.
In order to obtain any level of personal freedom, one must be able to alter their own state of consciousness at their own discretion.
I am sorry if none of this makes sense, I have been having a terrible time thinking as of late. It's very weird. I woke up yesterday and found that I was incapable of many of my normal daily activities, including intelligent conversation and driving. It's been hell these past two days. HELP!!!!
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235261 - 10/09/04 12:37 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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"In order to obtain any level of personal freedom, one must be able to alter their own state of consciousness at their own discretion."
but by the description you gave before, reality actually caused you to want to make an altering in your consciousness.
it all boils down to "do we have free will or not"
this has been hotly debated here a lot, but I wouldn't mind going at it again
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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jux
I'm better thanan STD!
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kaiowas]
#3235288 - 10/09/04 12:46 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said:
"In order to obtain any level of personal freedom, one must be able to alter their own state of consciousness at their own discretion."
but by the description you gave before, reality actually caused you to want to make an altering in your consciousness.
it all boils down to "do we have free will or not"
this has been hotly debated here a lot, but I wouldn't mind going at it again
absolutely correct. I myself do not beleive in free will.
However, following the same line of reasoning, it is silly for society to punish me for a harmless act that they themselves are in large part responsible for.
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235301 - 10/09/04 12:50 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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raised by the television. are we ever responsible for our actions? imnot trying to come off as a dick but where do you draw the line? was manson responsible for his murders? was teh nazis responsible for thiers? was it the propaganda that was fed to them or the acceptance and willingness to comply?
sorry i jsut dont quite see where your coming from, it seems you are to blame society for your actions. which i dont totally disagree with. but i wanna make sure i get it right so i dont insult ya
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235302 - 10/09/04 12:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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this always brings back a great quote from bill hicks
"making nature illegal is like saying god mad a mistake..."
this is of course because most politicians claim they belong to some religious faction.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kaiowas]
#3235306 - 10/09/04 12:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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it is illegal. private property, dawn to dusk parks. is that the direction you were headed?
great quote.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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jux
I'm better thanan STD!
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kadakuda]
#3235353 - 10/09/04 01:05 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kadakuda said:
raised by the television. are we ever responsible for our actions? imnot trying to come off as a dick but where do you draw the line? was manson responsible for his murders? was teh nazis responsible for thiers? was it the propaganda that was fed to them or the acceptance and willingness to comply?
sorry i jsut dont quite see where your coming from, it seems you are to blame society for your actions. which i dont totally disagree with. but i wanna make sure i get it right so i dont insult ya
completely understandable. as i've mentioned, I've been having a terribley difficult time articulating myself these past two days. or driving. or writing. or even doing my menial job. but i digress.
As best as I can figure, before you are even born, you are influenced by your environs. and thus begins the programming. our mind is basically a tool that tries to formulate realities based on the information it is provided. over time, these experiences are composited into what makes use unique individuals. we are defined, often, by the decisions we will make. I find it no great logical leap that how we decide things is entirely dependent on what we have experienced. i find it logical that if you were to reproduce my mind and all the experiences I have had, you would be able to accurately predict my every decision.
if this holds true, then every person is merely one more complex system interacting with several other complex systems in this matrix we call society. therefore, if every decision made is predictable, it it entirely possible to predict every event that ever will occur. in order to actually do this, we would obviously need a system to work on that is as complex as the universe itself, and we would need to know the exact circumstances during the origin of existance. Obviously, this is infeasible, and hence we are incapable of predicting the future.
however, this does not remove the idea that every single action is absolutely predictable and that you, as a composite of your experiences, are only capable of taking one path. The idea of choices is an illusion, as you are merely the extention of the interactions of the complex systems.
Basically, hitler was unavoidable. the world's reactions to hitler was unavoidable. if I killed a man, and was then sentenced by the state to death, i wouldn't turn around and blame society. after all, their course was as predestined as my own.
I do not feel that we have free will. we have our illusion of choice. we can accept it or deny it. but one thing is certain. free will or not, you cannot escape external oppression.
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235371 - 10/09/04 01:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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oh ok i totally hear you. but are you also saying that your environment cannot cahnge you later on in life.
you say that if you were to be exactly duplicated in every sence that you would then become predictable. but what if there were a hurricane, death in the family, you got maimed etc. you would then become unpredictable, no? or are you saying that that same exact cpoy of you would jsut follow in your foot steps if everything around it was exactly the same?
for what ts worth i think your doing a pretty good job explaining, its just not one of the easiest things to pu tinto words.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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jux
I'm better thanan STD!
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kadakuda]
#3235401 - 10/09/04 01:23 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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indeed, the environment can change you. but there is nothing magic about the environment. the weather may be an insanely complex system, but it abides by the same rules of physics that governs us all. it is entirely predictable. hence, the hurricane is predictable. where a person will be at a given time is predictable. therfore, it is entirely predictable that my mom will die in such and such natural disaster scarring me in a predictable manner.
Even though we can't predict it, doesn't mean it isn't, in essense, predictable.
Of course, our inability to map the future does make life more interesting. But I just can't shake the notion that I've never had a choice in my entire existance. Maybe that's why I'm such a depressing person.
Life is a roller coaster, but everyone seems to think of it as an off road vehicle.
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235421 - 10/09/04 01:32 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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belive it or not this made such sense to me. more than our whole conversation..lol
Life is a roller coaster, but everyone seems to think of it as an off road vehicle.
so now i ask you do you believe in god? if so do you believe in him as a physics formula or a supreme being? could the supreme being not just stir things up? i personally dont believe in a god, nro do i not believe. purely hypothetical. but i see where your coming from, very interesting perspetive.
if im getting too personalyl just tell me to fuck off and ill leave you alone. i am pretty interested though.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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jux
I'm better thanan STD!
Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kadakuda]
#3235447 - 10/09/04 01:43 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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ah, not at all. My mind is an open book for all to read if they so inquire.
God, well, there is the one thing I cannot fathom. God and existance, one in the same I suppose.
I, in all honesty, am unsure what I beleive as far as god goes.
God, however, is irrelevant as far as free will goes. Ok, so god throws a monkey wrench in the absolute predictablity of the universe.. unless you can predict what god is going to do . However, it doesn't change the issue of free will.
Think of life as a flowing stream. In reality, a stream is a very complex system of dynamics. God will be represented by a child playing by the stream. Seems appropriate. If there is a god, it seems always to be toying with me like a child might toy with an insect. Now, divine intervention is that child throwing a rock into the stream. The stream was perfectly predictable in and of itself. The rock was unpredictable because it was divine and beyond the realm of the stream. however, the way in which the stream reacts to the rock is still predictable. The stream still has no free will. it can not decide to just change the direction of the current.
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: jux]
#3235492 - 10/09/04 01:59 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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very cool way of looking at things. not sure i agree all they way but it makes sense. anyway i really cant think much right now so im headed to try and sleep. great reading about your thoguhts, thanks for sharing
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: kaiowas]
#3236595 - 10/09/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said:
this always brings back a great quote from bill hicks
"making nature illegal is like saying god mad a mistake..."
this is of course because most politicians claim they belong to some religious faction.
Thats why they invented the DEVIL hehe, to explain away things like shrooms, weed and crack too!
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Rights, violation, drugs, governments, and YOU [Re: Ego Death]
#3237059 - 10/09/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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personally i believe totally in free will. Although it may be true fundamentally that our actions are the results of incredibly complex systems and interactions with the enviroment, that has no practical impact on my life.
I am not a slave to the dictates of people around me, of the government, of any god or law. I can do what i want and i take full responsibility for all my own successes and failures. I dont blame anything on society or television, because the only way those things enslave me is if I let them.
In all practical aspects i have freedom of choice and action. Even my desires and instincts are or can become subjugated to the higher aspects of personality.
Taking full responsibility for all aspects of your life is the most empowering and effective way to live your life. If you believe you are controlled, you will become so.
"realize that the system cant exist without belief" -sweat shop union
sorry if i went off topic
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Everything I post is fiction.
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