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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Can America Bring Peace to the World?
    #3229164 - 10/07/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Disclaimer: I do not neccesarily agree with every single intent and every single thing in this article. I do, however, agree with the basic premise and the overwhelming majority of what is said.

Can America Bring Peace to the World?
by Harry Browne

I received this email yesterday:

    I just finished a book The Pentagon's New Map by Thomas P. M. Barnett, a strategist for the Navy and Defense Department, in which he talks about America's role in the world, with concepts such as exporting rule-sets to the world, and dividing the world into "core" and "gap" countries.

    Overall, what he presented challenged some of my assumptions about America's role in the world. I was wondering if the same ends he describes, e.g. peace in our lifetime, could be achieved in more freedom-oriented ways that you have figured out.

    I commend this book to your reading, and if you have time, I would be interested in your thoughts.

Unfortunately, because of the book I'm currently writing, I can't spare any time for reading books that aren't related to my current project.

However, from what the email-writer said, I would guess that Thomas Barnett has never bothered to examine the history of government programs ? and the sad record of failure after failure after failure. It isn't just the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty or the War on Illiteracy that has failed to fulfill its promises. There hasn't been a single American war in this century or the last in which the U.S. government actually achieved the results that were promised when it went to war.

Here's a brief overview . . .

World War I

Objective: Bring democracy to all the countries of the world, self-determination for everyone, and a new world order that would end wars forever.

Result: American entry into the war prevented the two sides from negotiating a just end to the war. Instead, the Allies saw American entry as decisive, and so they rejected all peace overtures, fought the war to a bitter end, won the war, and imposed devastating, humiliating peace terms on Germany.

The result was an expansion of the British and French empires, subjecting millions more people worldwide to foreign rule. In addition, millions of Europeans were herded into foreign countries.

The U.S. entry into the European war prompted the Germans to finance and facilitate Lenin's takeover of Russia ? creating the Soviet Union. And the oppressive peace terms imposed on the German people caused them to accept a thug named Adolf Hitler as their avenging angel. Thus U.S. entry into the war was responsible for what many call the two worst regimes in world history ? and the cause of 52 years of wars from 1939 to 1991.

World War II

Objective: Liberate Europe and China, and impose peace upon the world.

Result: Half of Europe was controlled by the Soviet Union, and China was quickly taken over by the Communists.

The Cold War

Objective: Free subjugated countries.

Result: In the process of "fighting" the Cold War, Iran's democracy was overthrown with the help of the CIA ? leaving the Iranians subjugated by the oppressive Shah. That's just one example, however. The U.S. government imposed or assisted dictators in Panama, the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Cuba, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, China, South Korea, South Vietnam, the Philippines, and numerous countries in Africa.

The Korean War

Objective: Save South Korea from being taken over by an oppressive dictatorship.

Result: South Korea was left in the hands of an oppressive dictator, Syngman Rhee, who was just as oppressive as the communist North Korean dictator, Kim Il Sung.

The Vietnam War

Objective: Save Indochina from Communism, and prevent dominos from falling all over the world.

Result: Indochina was overrun by communists. (Surprisingly, the world didn't come to an end.)

The Panamanian War

Objective: Stop Panama from being a conduit for drug-running.

Result: The Panamanian army was destroyed, leaving the country more vulnerable to drug-running.

The First Iraq War

Objective: Free Kuwait and stop Saddam Hussein from taking over the world. (Seriously, George H.W. Bush called him a modern-day Hitler, who had to be stopped the way Hitler should have been stopped at Munich.) At the end of the war, George H.W. Bush called on the Iraqis to overthrow Hussein.

Result: Kuwait is still run by a family dynasty that has no interest in democracy or in providing rights for the people. Apparently, Saddam Hussein wasn't stopped from his diabolical plans of world domination ? at least according to George H.W. Bush's son 11 years later. And Bush Sr. helped put down the postwar rebellion that would have overthrown Hussein.

The Bombing of Serbia

Objective: End the ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo, perpetrated by the Serbs.

Result: The Albanians ethnic-cleansed all the Serbs and gypsies out of Kosovo, as well as terrorizing the Macedonians in Macedonia.

The War in Afghanistan

Objective: Stop the country from harboring terrorists, get rid of the Taliban, create human rights for women, and establish a free Afghanistan.

Result: Al-Qaeda operatives continue to function there, and Osama Bin Laden himself may be safely hiding in Afghanistan. Women are still treated as tools, rather than people. And as for freedom, the Afghan people are subjugated by brutal warlords, and the Taliban have been invited back in to help restore order.

The War in Iraq

Objective: "Disarm" Saddam Hussein and liberate the Iraqi people.

Result: Turns out that there was nothing to "disarm." (Surprisingly, George Bush is still justifying the war by saying that "Saddam Hussein had no intention of disarming." Disarming what???) And over 10,000 Iraqi deaths later, Iraq is not only not liberated, it's being occupied by a foreign power that's being fought by a determined resistance movement.

Success?

So while Mr. Barnett's objectives may be attractive, they are irrelevant ? since the odds against the U.S. government actually achieving them are at least 100 to 1.

The Pentagon will try to export rule-sets to other countries, with no success (rule-sets that, incidentally, don't apply in the U.S.). If I understand the terms correctly, the "core" countries will be those whose rulers agree to do whatever the U.S. President tells them to do, and the "gap" countries will be those run by rulers who insist on making their own rules.

There is no way that America can make the entire world peaceful ? or, in fact, any part of the world except America itself.

Peace in our Time

We could lift the state of siege in America tomorrow morning if the U.S. would simply stop meddling in other countries' affairs.

The supposed "hate America" feeling is really the fear that America is going to come into one's country and throw its weight around ? as it has in Afghanistan, the Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Somalia, Libya, Colombia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Panama, Grenada, Guatemala, Indonesia, East Timor, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Pakistan, the Congo, and dozens of other countries.

The question really is simple: Which do we want . . .

    ? To have our government make a futile effort to bring peace and democracy to the world ? in the process generating such hatred that we live the rest of our lives in a state of siege, with America becoming progressively more like the chaos that exists in Israel and the Palestinian territories?

    Or

    ? Bring all the troops home, end all foreign aid to friends and foes alike, keep out of the affairs of other countries ? and restore the peace and liberty that America experienced throughout most of the 19th century?

You decide. But when you decide, remember that you're choosing the inevitable consequences at the same time you choose the objective.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 384
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3229195 - 10/07/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Make love, not war. :hippie:


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3229257 - 10/07/04 07:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As a lifetime UK citizen, I must confess to a little of the fear America feeling.
It sometimes seems like the helm of fearsome engine has been has been left to those of ill intent, and the owners don't care.


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3229262 - 10/07/04 07:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Why should they care? They've got their SUVs.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3229280 - 10/07/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." --Albert Einstein

I don't really know why so many people seem to JUST NOT UNDERSTAND that war will breed war, without question. The ONLY case where this won't occur is if you completely exterminate the other side, down to the last woman and child. If you don't go that far, there WILL be people left who feel wronged by the war you have fought against them. Those people will tell their children about how they were wronged, how all their relatives were killed by bombs and guns...and tell them not to forget it. Hate, unfortunately, thrives under such circumstances :frown:


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: trendal]
    #3229300 - 10/07/04 07:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This is why it pains me to read about Israel/Palestine. Just a prime realtime exibit for humankind at its worst.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: trendal]
    #3229425 - 10/07/04 07:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." --Albert Einstein




I'm sorry, I appreciate greatly Einstein's contribution to our scientist's understanding of the universe, but this is a crushingly stupid assertion. Haven't you ever noticed that the physics wonks should for the most part not be allowed out alone? Wasn't the worst president in recent memory (Jimmy Carter) a physicist? This statement assumes a totally unfactual assumption that humans do not strive for control over other humans. It happens in almost every marriage, as a simple example. On a national or clannish scale it is endemic. If you pursue any policy that denies this you are begging for non-consenual sodomy, at best.


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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

Registered: 07/01/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3229445 - 10/07/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

America is Mystery Babylon and the actions we take against the outside world will only ultimately bring out our desctruction and open up the doors to a tyrannical government. Considering the China/Taiwan issue - Bush has been quoted as upholding the idea of protecting the world from communism if it means armed resistance(don't remember where I read this, but am almost certain of this). If China goes into Taiwan I think we could be suffering some serious dangers... research it.. maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but that's my idea here.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3229453 - 10/07/04 08:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm sorry, I appreciate greatly Einstein's contribution to our scientist's understanding of the universe, but this is a crushingly stupid assertion.

Please explain how it is possible to prevent a war which you are preparing yourself for. They guy isn't called the smartest man of the 20th for nothing...

Haven't you ever noticed that the physics wonks should for the most part not be allowed out alone?

No, actually, I haven't noticed that.

This statement assumes a totally unfactual assumption that humans do not strive for control over other humans.

How does that statement assume this?


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 384
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: trendal]
    #3229712 - 10/07/04 08:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Alot of war mongers here should watch the Fog of War... people have to learn that you cant kill other people. :thumbup:


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3229715 - 10/07/04 08:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ah look, zappaisgod is claiming to know something Einstein didn't. Somebody slap that high horse under you.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3229764 - 10/07/04 09:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wasn't the worst president in recent memory (Jimmy Carter) a physicist?



No, the worst president in recent memory was a governor of Texas and son of a previous president.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3229777 - 10/07/04 09:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ah look, zappaisgod is claiming to know something Einstein didn't

and he happens to be right.


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: ]
    #3229794 - 10/07/04 09:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Here's another tid bit of Eintein wisdom: Politics is for idiots.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: trendal]
    #3229813 - 10/07/04 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I'm sorry, I appreciate greatly Einstein's contribution to our scientist's understanding of the universe, but this is a crushingly stupid assertion.

Please explain how it is possible to prevent a war which you are preparing yourself for. They guy isn't called the smartest man of the 20th for nothing...

Please, how can you prevent a war by NOT preparing for it? Smartest guy of the 20th cent????? Not even necessarily in his field. See Heisenberg and Hawking and Thorne and many more. It's not like he's the Yankees of baseball and it's a game. And how does his particular expertise translate to politics? It doesn't any more than Salvador Dali's. How about HIM for emperor?

Haven't you ever noticed that the physics wonks should for the most part not be allowed out alone?

No, actually, I haven't noticed that.

I did particularly add wonks because I think that's what he was.


This statement assumes a totally unfactual assumption that humans do not strive for control over other humans.

How does that statement assume this?




How does it not??????


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3229820 - 10/07/04 09:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Haven't you ever noticed that the physics wonks should for the most part not be allowed out alone?




huh?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3229894 - 10/07/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Einstein's quote doesn't say you should NEITHER prepare for war nor prevent it...just that you can't do both at the same time :wink:

So again: how does his quote assume that humans do not strive for control over other humans?

Unless you're reading something in the quote that I've missed...


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: trendal]
    #3230006 - 10/07/04 10:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Einstein's quote doesn't say you should NEITHER prepare for war nor prevent it...just that you can't do both at the same time :wink:



Can you say deterrence?  We didn't have a war with the USSR.  We prepared, we didn't have.  If we hadn't been prepared I suspect things would be quite different today.  There is no chance of preventing it if you don't prepare for it.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3230015 - 10/07/04 10:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We didn't have a war with the USSR.

Oh...so the Cold War never happened, eh?


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Can America Bring Peace to the World? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3230023 - 10/07/04 10:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

*cough*cold*war*cough*


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