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Invisibleafoaf
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ok, now I'll call them freedom fries...
    #3227495 - 10/07/04 02:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041007-113741-9651r.htm

Chirac calls for lifting arms ban on China

Paris, France, Oct. 7 (UPI) -- French President Jacques Chirac is calling on the European Union to lift a long-standing arms embargo against China.

"France supports lifting the embargo," Chirac said in an interview with China's official news agency, Xinhua, adding it no longer reflected present day realities.

The European Union imposed the weapons' ban following China's 1989 crackdown against pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square, in Beijing.

Today, European countries are divided over lifting the embargo, with Sweden and the Netherlands opposed to doing so. The United States is also against it.

Chirac noted "stong reservations" on the part of Washington, but said Paris would push for a swift lifting of the embargo. His remarks were posted on the French presidency's Web site, and came ahead of Chirac's trip to China on Friday.

During his visit, the French president is expected to press for greater trade and foreign investment with China.

=====================================================

as if clinton selling weapons information to china wasn't enough, now
the frogs want to outright arm them...

great.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3227511 - 10/07/04 02:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041007-113741-9651r.htm

Chirac calls for lifting arms ban on China

Paris, France, Oct. 7 (UPI) -- French President Jacques Chirac is calling on the European Union to lift a long-standing arms embargo against China.

"France supports lifting the embargo," Chirac said in an interview with China's official news agency, Xinhua, adding it no longer reflected present day realities.

The European Union imposed the weapons' ban following China's 1989 crackdown against pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square, in Beijing.

Today, European countries are divided over lifting the embargo, with Sweden and the Netherlands opposed to doing so. The United States is also against it.

Chirac noted "stong reservations" on the part of Washington, but said Paris would push for a swift lifting of the embargo. His remarks were posted on the French presidency's Web site, and came ahead of Chirac's trip to China on Friday.

During his visit, the French president is expected to press for greater trade and foreign investment with China.

=====================================================

as if clinton selling weapons information to china wasn't enough, now
the frogs want to outright arm them...

great.




What is your reasoning that continued sanctions are warranted? I'm jus t curious as I haven't read up a whole lot on the situation lately. I don't think it's fair that all non-democracies should be sanctioned and prohibited from doing as they please, so long as they aren't harming others.


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InvisibleSteinM
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Registered: 07/03/03
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3227548 - 10/07/04 02:47 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The french are turds.


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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3227578 - 10/07/04 02:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

China anno 2004 is quite different from what it was in 1989.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3227630 - 10/07/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

too bad...

they are still assbackwards human rights violators
as well as the only nation in the world left that could
threaten the EU and North America cumulatively.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3227760 - 10/07/04 03:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

France is probably just pissed that the USA gets such a LARGE share in the world's arms market. They probably see a large void in the market...which they of course could fill :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
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You don't know what it is, but it's there....
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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3228392 - 10/07/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Now i'll call it "liberty kissing".






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--------------------------------


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3228418 - 10/07/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Put some of this on your fries while you're at it


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3228457 - 10/07/04 04:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"The Iraqi insurgents are our best allies." -French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3228474 - 10/07/04 04:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not sure that this is the best time to drop sanctions on arms trades with them, but I can certainly understand the reasoning behind it.

I think China's government is slowly shifting over to becoming a more democratic state. They're already blatantly capitalist, even though they don't really call themselves that. The communist economic ideals have been mostly discarded, and I think that's likely why they managed to maintain a somewhat stable economy.

When Hong Kong rejoined China, it brought a lot of rich, influential people accustomed to democracy with it, and China has been forced to accomodate them to a certain degree. While most of the leaders remain appointed, there are quite a few democrats now have been elected. They have little power and influence, but they are slowly bringing democratic ideals into the government, which will have a lasting impact.

I do think that reducing trade barriers and showing them a certain degree of respect could help to change this attitude as well. We can't preach to them about how to run their country, not because we should respect that their culture is different and therefore allowed to violate human rights, or any bullshit like that, but because that is not the most effective way to promote change. Relations with China aren't hostile, they're just tense, and this is a good time to be making friends. China has had strong ties with North Korea, and have provided them with support and financial assistance, but have recently accused North Korea of being ungrateful, and urged them to change their hostile attitude. If we can create a stronger friendship with China, they will likely push their influence on North Korea to calm down, and be more likely to take our side should a conflict arise.

I think that this should probably be approached slightly differently than simply dropping all sanctions, but it might be a good idea to start working to create a better relationship, and perhaps work up to something like that.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3228496 - 10/07/04 04:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

He never said that.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3228526 - 10/07/04 05:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
"The Iraqi insurgents are our best allies." -French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin




Did he seriously say that?


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3228543 - 10/07/04 05:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

No.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3228561 - 10/07/04 05:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/29325.htm

"Add to this the recent bizarre phrase from French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin. The head of the Figaro press group went to see him about the kidnapping of two French journalists in Iraq; Raffarin assured him they would soon be freed, reportedly saying, "The Iraqi insurgents are our best allies.""


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlineallmakescombined
Boss Man

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: trendal]
    #3228593 - 10/07/04 05:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Ah ok he did say it, but the context is entirely different. He pulled a John Kerry pretty much with the 87 billion. The French Prime minister was trying to secure the release of hostages. A little sweet talking never hurts to save lives.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: Phluck]
    #3228624 - 10/07/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that the best catalyst to democracy is an informed
electorate.

The inroads that western businesses have made into china
are fueling the fires of change beneath the feet of the communist
government there, most notably the consumerism of western
goods and media (satelite tv).

I don't necessarily disagree with lifting some sanctions, but I
don't particularly think that exporting weapons to a nation that
is supporting NK and has the potential to be the world super
power of the future is the smartest thing to do.

I say, keep them living in caves for a few more decades...


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: trendal]
    #3228639 - 10/07/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Raffarin assured him they would soon be freed, reportedly saying, "The Iraqi insurgents are our best allies.""

So he reportedly said it, and we don't really know the exact context at all. It makes me a little suspicious of him, but it's not a well established enough fact to really hold it against him.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: afoaf]
    #3228668 - 10/07/04 05:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Well, their support for North Korea is changing. I'm pretty sure that China's actual leaders think Kim Jong-Il is a psychopath, but they don't want to a) set him off or b) abandon a state they have a huge part in creating. I think the more we can do to bring China on our side, the better, we may see a stronger effort to enact change in North Korea as a result.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: Phluck]
    #3228682 - 10/07/04 05:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

North Korea is practically a cult. Everyone has to praise the 'Dear Leader'.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: ok, now I'll call them freedom fries... [Re: Phluck]
    #3228753 - 10/07/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

is change in North Korea worth mortgaging our future for?


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