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Invisible1stimer
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Loc: Amerika
Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOUND
    #3226694 - 10/07/04 09:31 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20041007/ap_on_el_pr/cheney
Quote:

MIAMI - Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) asserted on Thursday that a report by the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq (news - web sites), who found no evidence that Iraq produced weapons of mass destruction after 1991, justifies rather than undermines President Bush (news - web sites)'s decision to go to war.

The report shows that "delay, defer, wasn't an option," Cheney told a town-hall style meeting.

While Democrats seized on the new report by Charles Duelfer to bolster their case that invading Iraq was a mistake, Cheney focused on portions of the report that were more favorable to the administration's case.

Although it says Saddam's weapons program had deteriorated since the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites) and did not pose a threat to the world in 2003, the report also says that Saddam's main goal was to get international sanctions lifted.

"As soon as the sanctions were lifted he had every intention of going back" to his weapons program, Cheney said.

Cheney said the report also concluded that the United Nations (news - web sites)' "Fuel for Food" program "was totally corrupted by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). There were suggestions employees of the United Nations were part of the scheme as well."

"The suggestion is clearly there by Mr. Duelfer that Saddam had used the program in such a way that he had bought off foreign governments and was building support among them to take the sanctions down," Cheney said.

That being the case, there was no reason to wait to invade Iraq to give inspectors more time to do their work, Cheney said.

On Wednesday, the former head of the U.N. weapons inspection team, Hans Blix, said: "Had we had a few months more (of inspections before the war), we would have been able to tell both the CIA (news - web sites) and others that there were no weapons of mass destruction (at) all the sites that they had given to us."

Duelfer's report said what ambitions Saddam harbored for such weapons were secondary to his goal of evading those sanctions, and he wanted them primarily not to attack the United States or to provide them to terrorists, but to oppose his older enemies, Iran and Israel.

The report of the weapons hunter was presented Wednesday to senators and the public in the midst of a fierce presidential election campaign in which Iraq and the war of terror have become the overriding issues.





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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOUND [Re: 1stimer]
    #3226702 - 10/07/04 09:36 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"As soon as the sanctions were lifted he had every intention of going back" to his weapons program, Cheney said.





so possible desire to resume long-dead weapons programs equates to an imminent threat that required an immediate invasion? what a bunch of shit.

Quote:

Duelfer's report said what ambitions Saddam harbored for such weapons were secondary to his goal of evading those sanctions, and he wanted them primarily not to attack the United States or to provide them to terrorists, but to oppose his older enemies, Iran and Israel.



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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOUND [Re: 1stimer]
    #3226793 - 10/07/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

What a douche.




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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3226819 - 10/07/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Again, unless Cheney and Bush had clairvoyance and could see this report 2 years away before the war, it proves nothing. Your title was also very disigenuis.
In hindsight his logic was that "Well we thought he had weapons, and he obviously didn't, but even so had we not invaded sanctions probobly would have been dropped and he would have been able to restart his weapons programs which he desired to do."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOUND [Re: Learyfan]
    #3226828 - 10/07/04 10:18 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Cheney is the king of double-speak. Basically, no matter what was or was not found, or who was or was not involved, the reasons for war were justified.

Imagine Cheney as a prosecutor: "Your honor, the defendent had no drugs or paraphenalia in his possession which is proof that he is hardened drug abuser."

Seriously, no matter your leanings, how can anyone accept this "logic"? I suggest everyone read (or re-read) Orwell's "1984" where this script was borrowed intact.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3226854 - 10/07/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Had they let the weapons inspectors do their job they wouldn't need to be clairvoyant.

Why can't you understand that?





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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227061 - 10/07/04 11:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
- Dick Cheney, speech to VFW National Convention, Aug. 26, 2002

Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
- George W. Bush, speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 12, 2002

No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
- Donald Rumsfeld, testimony to Congress, Sept. 19, 2002

We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003

What we know from UN inspectors over the course of the last decade is that Saddam Hussein possesses thousands of chemical warheads, that he possesses hundreds of liters of very dangerous toxins that can kill millions of people.
- White House spokesman Dan Bartlett, CNN interview, Jan. 26, 2003

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent?. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
- George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003

We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more.
- Colin Powell, remarks to UN Security Council, Feb. 5, 2003

We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons - the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.
- George W. Bush, radio address, Feb. 8, 2003

If Iraq had disarmed itself, gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction over the past 12 years, or over the last several months since [UN Resolution] 1441 was enacted, we would not be facing the crisis that we now have before us.
- Colin Powell, interview with Radio France International, Feb. 28, 2003

Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
- George W. Bush, address to the U.S., March 17, 2003

Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly?..All this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleisher, press briefing, March 21, 2003

There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. And?.as this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them.
- Gen. Tommy Franks, press conference, March 22, 2003

I have no doubt we're going to find big stores of weapons of mass destruction.
- Defense Policy Board member Kenneth Adelman, The Washington Post, March 23, 2003

One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites.
- Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clark, press briefing, March 22, 2003

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat.
- Donald Rumsfeld, ABC interview, March 30, 2003

Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find - and there will be plenty.
- Robert Kagan, The Washington Post, April 9, 2003

But make no mistake - as I said earlier - we have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction. That is what this war was about and it is about. And we have high confidence it will be found.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, April 10, 2003

We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so.
- George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 3, 2003

I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now.
- Colin Powell, remarks to reporters, May 4, 2003

I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein ? because he had a weapons program.
- George W. Bush, remarks to reporters, May 6, 2003

We said what we said because we meant it?..We continue to have confidence that WMD will be found.
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, press briefing, May 7, 2003

Before the war, there's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found.
- Gen. Michael Hagee, Commandant of the Marine Corps, interview with reporters, May 21, 2003

Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction.
- Gen. Richard Myers, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, NBC Today Show interview, May 26, 2003

Do I think we're going to find something? Yeah, I kind of do, because I think there's a lot of information out there."
- Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, Defense Intelligence Agency, press conference, May 30, 2003

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I'm not even going to continue, that's plenty. They told the world they KNEW saddam had WMD, that they even KNEW where they were and that's why we were invading, to keep america safe against those WMD's. It's bullshit. Proven, absolute bullshit. But all the neocon freeper drones will continue to swallow it and the bible thumping nascar zombies won't even question it. Bleh.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227251 - 10/07/04 11:52 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Weapons inspectors were unable to do their job BECASUE OF SAADAM for an entire decade leading up to the push for ENFORCEMENT. Why is it that each and every liberal here CANNOT REMEMBER THAT.

Iraq was a problem that predated 9/11/01.

Sanctions did not work. Inspectors did not work. These things only work when the are followed by everyone. WE DID NOt KNOW FOR SURE IF SAADAM HAD DISARMED OR NOT, IT TOOK A WAR TO FIND OUT.

All saadam ever had to do was let the Inspectors do their job without interference. HE DId NOt DO THAT!!!

What is the saying about repeating behaviors over and over and expecting different results? Something about insanity?

Inspections did not work to Gurantee that Saadam had disarmed. So why you think they would work if tried again is INSANITY.

The argument for war was justified. The lack of Allies showing up was not justified. You are on the wrong side of the fence in my opinion. The UN calling this war illegal shows were the majority of it's members reside as well. The Wrong side of the fence.

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3227294 - 10/07/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EonTan said:
Weapons inspectors were unable to do their job BECASUE OF SAADAM for an entire decade leading up to the push for ENFORCEMENT. Why is it that each and every liberal here CANNOT REMEMBER THAT.

Iraq was a problem that predated 9/11/01.

Sanctions did not work. Inspectors did not work. These things only work when the are followed by everyone. WE DID NOt KNOW FOR SURE IF SAADAM HAD DISARMED OR NOT, IT TOOK A WAR TO FIND OUT.

All saadam ever had to do was let the Inspectors do their job without interference. HE DId NOt DO THAT!!!

What is the saying about repeating behaviors over and over and expecting different results? Something about insanity?

Inspections did not work to Gurantee that Saadam had disarmed. So why you think they would work if tried again is INSANITY.

The argument for war was justified. The lack of Allies showing up was not justified. You are on the wrong side of the fence in my opinion. The UN calling this war illegal shows were the majority of it's members reside as well. The Wrong side of the fence.




Man where even to start. If you have been keeping abreast of the reports coming out now that have SHOWN flat out that saddam had disarmed and that in fact the inspections and sanctions WERE working.

As for inspectors being "kicked out" that's just bull shit. It was being said by the Iraqi government that there were spies among the inspectors who were trying to gain access to areas they had no right to (seperate from weapons inspections). Admist that, the US and UK inspectors pulled out in order for their respective countries to begin a bombing campaign. We burned our own bridge.

And yet despite that, the other inspections and sanctions STILL worked. Try thinking for yourself, try analzying the facts in front of you and stop repeating the bullshit neocon spin you hear from Rush Limbaugh or Fox News.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3227345 - 10/07/04 12:06 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

BS

Saddam was allowing weapons inspectors to do whatever they pleased just before the war. Our leaders then rushed to war so that the weapons inspectors wouldn't find out that there were no weapons.

I can't believe you right wingers. You'll try anything to defend our evil leaders. The human race is doomed because they have so many of you people brainwashed.  :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

I so sick of this fucking planet. You've all subconsciously decided to destroy this plane of existence.




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


Edited by Learyfan (10/07/04 12:06 PM)

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3227356 - 10/07/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"delay, defer, wasn't an option," Cheney.....

What is he? Chief of Global Thought Police? Does he use a crystal ball?

Swami puts it well.

After reading '1984' read 'Animal Farm'. Orwell is a legend beyond proportion - what he left as a legacy to schoolkids and adults alike, is a jewel of literacy and insight.

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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227371 - 10/07/04 12:10 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

If you have been keeping abreast of the reports coming out now that have SHOWN flat out that saddam had disarmed and that in fact the inspections and sanctions WERE working.

same shit, differenct decade. once the heat was off he'd a booted them out again, just like he did several times in the 90's.

It was being said by the Iraqi government that there were spies among the inspectors who were trying to gain access to areas they had no right to (seperate from weapons inspections).

hahaha. must be true then, eh?

Try thinking for yourself, try analzying the facts in front of you and stop repeating the bullshit neocon spin you hear from Rush Limbaugh or Fox News.

i for one neither watch fox news nor listen to rush limbaugh.

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3227398 - 10/07/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
If you have been keeping abreast of the reports coming out now that have SHOWN flat out that saddam had disarmed and that in fact the inspections and sanctions WERE working.

same shit, differenct decade. once the heat was off he'd a booted them out again, just like he did several times in the 90's.





Okay, did your magic 8 ball tell you this? I'm not about to get into an arguement of "what if". Oh and he didn't boot them that time in '98, we left.

Quote:

mushmaster said:
It was being said by the Iraqi government that there were spies among the inspectors who were trying to gain access to areas they had no right to (seperate from weapons inspections).

hahaha. must be true then, eh?




No more so than it must be false in my opinion. I mean, we bombed the bajeezus out of them right after that...

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Try thinking for yourself, try analzying the facts in front of you and stop repeating the bullshit neocon spin you hear from Rush Limbaugh or Fox News.

i for one neither watch fox news nor listen to rush limbaugh.




Fair enough.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227454 - 10/07/04 12:26 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Okay, did your magic 8 ball tell you this?

no, i am extrapolating from hussein's history of non-compliance and evasion throughout the 1990's. i'm telling you this because it is precisely what hussein did several times in the past after temporarily cooperating to get the heat off.

No more so than it must be false in my opinion.

do you think that their claims were true, and that they were justified in their non-cooperation as a result?

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3227474 - 10/07/04 12:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Okay, did your magic 8 ball tell you this?

no, i am extrapolating from hussein's history of non-compliance and evasion throughout the 1990's. i'm telling you this because it is precisely what hussein did several times in the past after temporarily cooperating to get the heat off.

No more so than it must be false in my opinion.

do you think that their claims were true, and that they were justified in their non-cooperation as a result?




I think they should have been given a credible investigation. Instead the inspectors left and we BOMBED THEM. Great solution and really indicative of a clear concious on our parts eh?

As for your extrapolation, the point I just made puts a kink in that. It's not such a simple situation. Besides which there would be no reason to ease containment on saddam and if we had true international support it would not be prohibitive to continue inspections and sanctions indefinitely. Instead we have over 1000 dead americans and countless 10's of thousands dead iraqis. Which is a larger number than some reports on how many iraqis Saddam has killed.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227492 - 10/07/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I think they should have been given a credible investigation. Instead the inspectors left and we BOMBED THEM.

after a decade of non-compliance, heel-dragging, and failed "diplomacy".

As for your extrapolation, the point I just made puts a kink in that. It's not such a simple situation.

what point? hussein's pattern of intermittent non-compliance is extremely clear. what makes you think it would have ended?

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3227538 - 10/07/04 12:45 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I think they should have been given a credible investigation. Instead the inspectors left and we BOMBED THEM.

after a decade of non-compliance, heel-dragging, and failed "diplomacy".

As for your extrapolation, the point I just made puts a kink in that. It's not such a simple situation.

what point? hussein's pattern of intermittent non-compliance is extremely clear. what makes you think it would have ended?




You're missing the bigger picture. Despite Saddam's obstreperous behavior, the inspections and sanctions were STILL working. He still had no working weapons programs. Just because in his black little heart he may have wished dearly for a nuclear arsenal doesn't mean he was ever going to obtain one.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227574 - 10/07/04 12:52 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You're missing the bigger picture. Despite Saddam's obstreperous behavior, the inspections and sanctions were STILL working.

they absolutely were not. read my last post in the other thread.

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3227593 - 10/07/04 12:55 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
You're missing the bigger picture. Despite Saddam's obstreperous behavior, the inspections and sanctions were STILL working.

they absolutely were not. read my last post in the other thread.




Okay. So where are all the WMD? Where are the WMD programs or progress towards them? You know, all those pesky things that the Bush administration said over and over and over were there, and that they even knew WHERE they were.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227628 - 10/07/04 12:59 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

there's no need to say the same things in different words in two different threads. i'll be posting in the other thread on this topic from here on out.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3228574 - 10/07/04 03:10 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

As to the sanctions and the inspections the actual Duelfer report satate that Saddam was working to lift sanctions (with the help of our "Allies") to restart his weapons programs, and was delibaretly giving the UN inspectors the run around so neighboring countries would believe he did have WMD. No amount of inspectors or time would have gotten the truth from the Iraqis who were not cooperating. Considering the sympathetic bias of people like Hans Blix it would have been easy for Iraq to lead on the inspectors indefinately.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3228816 - 10/07/04 03:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, Has Blix was damn near a ba'ath party member.  :rolleyes:

Do you really think that the justification for this war that you push is really worth the lives of 10,000 Iraqi's and counting as well as 1,064 US troops and counting as well as the billions we'll be spending as well as the diversion of our military as well as the loss of trust from other countries as well as US citizens? Is it really worth it? If yes, then you should sign up to go to Iraq. Everyone in favor of this war should.






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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3228971 - 10/07/04 04:24 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

If yes, then you should sign up to go to Iraq. Everyone in favor of this war should.

:thumbup:

Seems kind of hypocritical to support a war that you are unwilling to fight in...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: trendal]
    #3228982 - 10/07/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
If yes, then you should sign up to go to Iraq. Everyone in favor of this war should.

:thumbup:

Seems kind of hypocritical to support a war that you are unwilling to fight in...




:thumbup: If you're that convinced Saddam was such a threat, what with all those WMD's he didn't have and all those years of not attacking anyone, then your ass should be out there in the desert. But don't forget to bring your own body armor and you better hope you get one of the few hummvees with armored plating. Crossing yourself and crying "Halliburton" won't save you out there.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229002 - 10/07/04 04:30 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

do you agree with what the peace corps is doing?

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229015 - 10/07/04 04:32 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
do you agree with what the peace corps is doing?




You'll have to be more specific.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOUND [Re: Swami]
    #3229080 - 10/07/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Cheney is the king of double-speak. Basically, no matter what was or was not found, or who was or was not involved, the reasons for war were justified.

Imagine Cheney as a prosecutor: "Your honor, the defendent had no drugs or paraphenalia in his possession which is proof that he is hardened drug abuser."

Seriously, no matter your leanings, how can anyone accept this "logic"? I suggest everyone read (or re-read) Orwell's "1984" where this script was borrowed intact.




A better analogy would be a drug dealer tryed to kill off a rival drug dealer. This allowed his house to be raided. They found tons of cocaine, herions, and all sorts of drugs.

But he didnt go to jail they just asked him to document and destroy all of his drugs. Then years later after drug activity exploded globally he still had not compeltely documented and destroyed all his drugs.

Further evidence was found linking him to various other stuff so they raided him again. However they found no drugs(except minor sutff here and there) but they did find plans so he could hopefully set up a meth lab in his house.

Does this sound legal?

edit: crap i quoted wrong person sorry swamster, this addy is getting to me.


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Edited by d33p (10/07/04 04:47 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229108 - 10/07/04 04:46 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You'll have to be more specific.

ok...

do you agree with programs by the peace corps to send volunteers to senegal to educate the local populace about AIDS prevention?

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229124 - 10/07/04 04:48 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I'll repeat my prison analogy. Cops bust a guy (Saddam). He winds up in jail (sanctions and inspections that have been PROVEN to be working). Meanwhile a group of soldiers break into the jail, tear-gassing and beating up anyone in their way. Many casualties ensue, including other prisoners, guards and prison staff. They finally get their guy (saddam) and they stick him in isolation. Meanwhile all across the prison there are vicious riots and daily violence. Gang power increases dramatically in the vacuum of order and authority created by the raid.

That, in a nutshell, is Iraq.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229133 - 10/07/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
I'll repeat my prison analogy. Cops bust a guy (Saddam). He winds up in jail (sanctions and inspections that have been PROVEN to be working). Meanwhile a group of soldiers break into the jail, tear-gassing and beating up anyone in their way. Many casualties ensue, including other prisoners, guards and prison staff. They finally get their guy (saddam) and they stick him in isolation. Meanwhile all across the prison there are vicious riots and daily violence. Gang power increases dramatically in the vacuum of order and authority created by the raid.

That, in a nutshell, is Iraq.




Lol i dont think him being in prison is the best analogy to him running his won country pretty much free from rules.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229138 - 10/07/04 04:50 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

and you are correct in thinking so.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229148 - 10/07/04 04:52 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
You'll have to be more specific.

ok...

do you agree with programs by the peace corps to send volunteers to senegal to educate the local populace about AIDS prevention?




Absolutely. There are many places world-wide that can benefit from increased education and aid from all of the more wealthy, first world countries. That should be our moral priority and combined with containment of the dangerous regimes would lead to peace much more quickly and safely than carpet bombing. You don't WIN the peace, you EARN it. And it's not with bombs or missles, it's with compassion, education and understanding. Yeah I may sound like a dirty hippy, but better than than a war-mongering chicken hawk*.


*For the record, I'm not saying that you are.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229156 - 10/07/04 04:53 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

then by your reasoning, shouldn't you be in senegal?

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229180 - 10/07/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Absolutely. There are many places world-wide that can benefit from increased education and aid from all of the more wealthy, first world countries. That should be our moral priority and combined with containment of the dangerous regimes would lead to peace much more quickly and safely than carpet bombing. You don't WIN the peace, you EARN it. And it's not with bombs or missles, it's with compassion, education and understanding. Yeah I may sound like a dirty hippy, but better than than a war-mongering chicken hawk*.


*For the record, I'm not saying that you are.




Now with the indians, American could have earned peace(probably, maybe not all indian clans) but they decided to win. When a brutal dictator is in power it is not possible to earn peace.

And for the federal government has no business handing out aid to all the countries which can't support themselves. Use that method improving conditions in other countries will lower the conditions in this country. Also just handing out money is never the right answer.

insert fish/teach fishing anecedote


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229194 - 10/07/04 05:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:
I'll repeat my prison analogy. Cops bust a guy (Saddam). He winds up in jail (sanctions and inspections that have been PROVEN to be working). Meanwhile a group of soldiers break into the jail, tear-gassing and beating up anyone in their way. Many casualties ensue, including other prisoners, guards and prison staff. They finally get their guy (saddam) and they stick him in isolation. Meanwhile all across the prison there are vicious riots and daily violence. Gang power increases dramatically in the vacuum of order and authority created by the raid.

That, in a nutshell, is Iraq.




Lol i dont think him being in prison is the best analogy to him running his won country pretty much free from rules.




Yeah I'm sure he spent a lot of time on vacation in Cancun. But sure we can ammend it, it wasn't a federal "pound me in the ass" penitentary. It was a white collar resort prison. Tell me one time after the first gulf war that Saddam used military force to attack another country. Or one time he used any weapons of mass destruction after the gulf war? Or actively progressed towards an increased wmd program. Since we both already know the answer to that.. how again were the inspections and sanctions not effective? How was he not contained? How was he a "gathering threat" or an "imimnent danger"? Again since we both know the answer to that.. why the hell did we just throw away 1000+ american lives (1/3rd of the 9/11 attacks!!!) and 10's of thousands of iraqis??? And still, no end in sight.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229205 - 10/07/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

whoa there d33p. the point wasn't to get into a debate about international aid, but to expose the absurdity of the proposal that if one supports a particular cause, but does not actively participate in it, then one is some kind of hypocrite.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229224 - 10/07/04 05:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, i skipped a bit of the thread. And on topic i believe there is usually quite a difference between politcal ideology and ones actions but it does not nescissarly make one a hypocrite.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229240 - 10/07/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:
Absolutely. There are many places world-wide that can benefit from increased education and aid from all of the more wealthy, first world countries. That should be our moral priority and combined with containment of the dangerous regimes would lead to peace much more quickly and safely than carpet bombing. You don't WIN the peace, you EARN it. And it's not with bombs or missles, it's with compassion, education and understanding. Yeah I may sound like a dirty hippy, but better than than a war-mongering chicken hawk*.


*For the record, I'm not saying that you are.




Now with the indians, American could have earned peace(probably, maybe not all indian clans) but they decided to win. When a brutal dictator is in power it is not possible to earn peace.

And for the federal government has no business handing out aid to all the countries which can't support themselves. Use that method improving conditions in other countries will lower the conditions in this country. Also just handing out money is never the right answer.

insert fish/teach fishing anecedote




Exactly, that's why I tried to emphasis education. If education and prosperity can be brought to many of the peaceful "3rd world" countries by the U.S. and the UN, that would go a long way I think towards moralizing countries with oppressive regimes. They would have something to hope for. There would be credibility involved.

Instead we have Iraq as an example. We attack and occupy them because an unrelated terrorist group attacked us. We kills tens of thousands of their people and have the gross hubris to claim we're LIBERATING them. Mean while their whole country is complete shambles, not only from the war but also because there were no serious and large scale efforts done to alleviate the consequences of long-term sanctions and restrictions. That admittedly is a failure of american and international policy and is inexcusable in my opinion.

The lies and the actions based upon those lies that lead us into the mess we're in now with Iraq give no hope to any other countries in similar situations. Working with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China or any other of the numerous countries in the world where there are either oppressive regimes, deplorable civil and social conditions or both, is going to be that much harder because of our track record so far.

My election take on all this is that yes, we have created our own sisyphean task of getting back our credibility, of actually securing some sort of global peace. Bush has no plan except more of the same. He wants us to not only push the boulder up the highest mountain, he wants to push away anyone or anything that would help us. If that suits you, go ahead and vote for Bush. If not, there are other options.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229253 - 10/07/04 05:11 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
whoa there d33p. the point wasn't to get into a debate about international aid, but to expose the absurdity of the proposal that if one supports a particular cause, but does not actively participate in it, then one is some kind of hypocrite.




Well considering I have a family and am furthering my education, my options of hopping on a green peace boat or working with the peace corps over seas aren't exactly extant. I do local volunteer work however. Plus, I support what those organizations do and the catch is.. there isn't a catch, it's good work and I'm grateful there are people able to make a go at it. The war in Iraq is morally reprehensible and based on lies. If someone still wishes to support that, then yeah they should be in the thick of it.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229265 - 10/07/04 05:15 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:

Exactly, that's why I tried to emphasis education. If education and prosperity can be brought to many of the peaceful "3rd world" countries by the U.S. and the UN, that would go a long way I think towards moralizing countries with oppressive regimes. They would have something to hope for. There would be credibility involved.
What would they becoming educated for? Factory jobs?

Instead we have Iraq as an example. We attack and occupy them because an unrelated terrorist group attacked us. We kills tens of thousands of their people and have the gross hubris to claim we're LIBERATING them. Mean while their whole country is complete shambles, not only from the war but also because there were no serious and large scale efforts done to alleviate the consequences of long-term sanctions and restrictions. That admittedly is a failure of american and international policy and is inexcusable in my opinion.

Well many more than one reasonf rot he war. Conditions are now better than before the war. It is rebuilding and the sanctions in time will be forgotten(also they are beign praised in another thread currently). It is getting better. It is just retarded that a few non-iraqis are coming to disrupt the effort. I mean serriously we just want to help. If something happened where it was obviosu the war was for oil, or they start stealing oil then i could maybe give them some leeway.

The lies and the actions based upon those lies that lead us into the mess we're in now with Iraq give no hope to any other countries in similar situations. Working with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China or any other of the numerous countries in the world where there are either oppressive regimes, deplorable civil and social conditions or both, is going to be that much harder because of our track record so far.

I'm not intirely turned off by our now percieved hardline stance on opressive regimes and terrorism.

My election take on all this is that yes, we have created our own sisyphean task of getting back our credibility, of actually securing some sort of global peace. Bush has no plan except more of the same. He wants us to not only push the boulder up the highest mountain, he wants to push away anyone or anything that would help us. If that suits you, go ahead and vote for Bush. If not, there are other options.

Please, we want help and are trying to get more. And goodness of global standing is over rated.





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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229291 - 10/07/04 05:22 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

What would they becoming educated for? Factory jobs?

Do you only view education as preparation for the job world?


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: d33p]
    #3229307 - 10/07/04 05:25 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:

Exactly, that's why I tried to emphasis education. If education and prosperity can be brought to many of the peaceful "3rd world" countries by the U.S. and the UN, that would go a long way I think towards moralizing countries with oppressive regimes. They would have something to hope for. There would be credibility involved.
What would they becoming educated for? Factory jobs?

Ah, no. I was thinking more along the lines of education towards building a better society in general. A way to enable the citizens to create and sustain a more peaceful, productive and free nation.


Instead we have Iraq as an example. We attack and occupy them because an unrelated terrorist group attacked us. We kills tens of thousands of their people and have the gross hubris to claim we're LIBERATING them. Mean while their whole country is complete shambles, not only from the war but also because there were no serious and large scale efforts done to alleviate the consequences of long-term sanctions and restrictions. That admittedly is a failure of american and international policy and is inexcusable in my opinion.

Well many more than one reasonf rot he war. Conditions are now better than before the war. It is rebuilding and the sanctions in time will be forgotten(also they are beign praised in another thread currently). It is getting better. It is just retarded that a few non-iraqis are coming to disrupt the effort. I mean serriously we just want to help. If something happened where it was obviosu the war was for oil, or they start stealing oil then i could maybe give them some leeway.

Just because Bush & Cheney tell you it's better, does not make it true. I think the facts and figures speak for themselves:


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0629-10.htm
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3050
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3125iraq_firsthand.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5973272/site/newsweek
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-02.htm


Quote:

Colin Powell said:
"Yes, it's getting worse" he said of the insurgency on ABC's "This Week."




Nice try though. Fact is, Iraq is in shambles and it's the fault of our idiot leader and his complete lack of any kind of exit plan or general strategy to secure the peace.


The lies and the actions based upon those lies that lead us into the mess we're in now with Iraq give no hope to any other countries in similar situations. Working with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China or any other of the numerous countries in the world where there are either oppressive regimes, deplorable civil and social conditions or both, is going to be that much harder because of our track record so far.

I'm not intirely turned off by our now percieved hardline stance on opressive regimes and terrorism.

But then, you're not a fearful populace stuck between more of the same under an oppressive regime or the likely hood that your neighborhood and family will be bombed into oblivion by the "liberating" army.

My election take on all this is that yes, we have created our own sisyphean task of getting back our credibility, of actually securing some sort of global peace. Bush has no plan except more of the same. He wants us to not only push the boulder up the highest mountain, he wants to push away anyone or anything that would help us. If that suits you, go ahead and vote for Bush. If not, there are other options.

Please, we want help and are trying to get more. And goodness of global standing is over rated.

Over-rated by you perhaps.









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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229343 - 10/07/04 05:36 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

you don't see why that line of reasoning is absurd, do you?

if a person supports a cause, he or she must become an active participant or otherwise is a hypocrite?

what if a person supports multiple causes?

listen... i understand that you didn't support the invasion of iraq but come now. the assertion you're making here just doesn't add up.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229660 - 10/07/04 06:42 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
you don't see why that line of reasoning is absurd, do you?

if a person supports a cause, he or she must become an active participant or otherwise is a hypocrite?

what if a person supports multiple causes?

listen... i understand that you didn't support the invasion of iraq but come now. the assertion you're making here just doesn't add up.




Right well, my point was the same in that you obviously can't actively participate in everything you agree with or support. I'm just saying that it's my opinion that if you specifically continue to support a pack of lies like the war on iraq, you should be on the front line to understand just what's going on because of those lies.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3229861 - 10/07/04 07:24 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I'm just saying that it's my opinion that if you specifically continue to support a pack of lies like the war on iraq...

it seems that you saying this:

if you support a good cause, it's perfectly ok if you don't participate directly.

but if you support that which is wrong, you must actively participate to avoid contradiction....

for instance... if i support the genocide of black sudanese, but i'm not currently over there helping kill them, i am a hypocrite?

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229902 - 10/07/04 07:36 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I'm just saying that it's my opinion that if you specifically continue to support a pack of lies like the war on iraq...

it seems that you saying this:

if you support a good cause, it's perfectly ok if you don't participate directly.

but if you support that which is wrong, you must actively participate to avoid contradiction....

for instance... if i support the genocide of black sudanese, but i'm not currently over there helping kill them, i am a hypocrite?




Not to avoid contradiction, more as a way of knowing just what kind of evil it is you're supporting. I guess I didn't mean that a person was a hypocrite for doing that, but rather I would like to see people confront directly the repugnant thing(s) they support. Like retread in that other thread, posting a picture of a lynched black man. He should have go to witness a lynching and see the death, see the effects on the family of the murdered.

*shrug*


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229931 - 10/07/04 07:44 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Hell is the impossibility of Reason.

The Left should just come out and say it. War is bad mmmmkay. Saadam wasn't really that bad mmmkay. He really really was going to cooperate this time mmmmkay. Who cares if he did something really bad a decade ago mmmkay, he hasn't done anything bad lately mmkay. A few inspectors who never actually got to suprise inspect anything in Iraq said he was clean,mmmkay, even though the guy in charge of inspecting Iraq said he had know real idea, becasue he couldn't do his job effectively mmkay. I think we should just believe Saadam becasue that guarentees that we don't lose any lives holding him accountable.

The analogy should be Cops just letting murderers and robbers go, becasue someone might get hurt in the act of holding them accountable for their crimes.

The drug dealer analogy should go like this. I sell drugs, I get caught, I agree to let the cops hang out in my house to monitor me if I don't get sent to jail. I then proceed to only let the cops be in the rooms I am not using, and only let them into the room I was using, after I tell them it is ok, and I never let them search Me or the bags I carry from room to room.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3229984 - 10/07/04 07:56 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Mushmaster, what you described is exactly what Kerry is.

You cant take everything at face value esspecially with the media. I am going to believe what the PM of Iraq said, because he is the one responsible for that information to be accurate, rather than the media. Because the media comes through the perception of the one who reports the story. For example: http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3050, "Exposing the impact of military and economic occupation of Iraq". That statement "exposes" the writer's perception. Everything he sees is negative. And occupation is a term used for the forced control of a country. For example, Hitler's occupation of Europe. My point is dont believe everything you read and see in the media. If everyone watched just Michael Moore's documentaries as their only form of media, then everyone would be a secularist and have the same belief that every conservative is wrong and all liberals are right. The EIR states that everyone is a fascist. The media ia a bunch of useless noise that is to be translated by the reader not by the writer. The writers job is to report the facts. If you have ever taken a communications course then you understand this principle. No one really knows exactly at the given time the state of any situation. Example: in the debates Kerry states 250 billion dollars spent on the war, Bush says 90 billion, I heard somewhere 170 billion. The fact is that no one is exactly sure. But perception, being liberal or conservative tends to exaggerate or lighten the load of information recieved by the viewer. Thats all I have to say.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3230970 - 10/07/04 10:12 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EonTan said:
Hell is the impossibility of Reason.

The Left should just come out and say it. War is bad mmmmkay. Saadam wasn't really that bad mmmkay. He really really was going to cooperate this time mmmmkay. Who cares if he did something really bad a decade ago mmmkay, he hasn't done anything bad lately mmkay. A few inspectors who never actually got to suprise inspect anything in Iraq said he was clean,mmmkay, even though the guy in charge of inspecting Iraq said he had know real idea, becasue he couldn't do his job effectively mmkay. I think we should just believe Saadam becasue that guarentees that we don't lose any lives holding him accountable.





1. War is bad. Not sure how you can argue this. People die as a result of war, even a just war is a terrible thing and when the war is based on a pack of lies... well I think you get the idea.

2. Saddamn isn't that bad if you compare him to other dictators throughout history or even various oppressive regimes extant today. He's a right evil bastard, there is no argument about that. But the fact is, he hasn't attacked his neighbors in over a decade. He didn't have any WMD, nor the ability to obtain any. So he's about as dangerous as a rottweiler that's been muzzled and had it's feet bound together.

3. The inspectors then were saying he was "clean" and there was no credible evidence to indicate otherwise. $200 billion dollars, 10k+ iraqis and over a thousand americans later we have confirmed that. Real nice.

4. If you've been following this and a couple other similar threads you will have learned the following:

Quote:

VIENNA, Austria - The head of the U.N. nuclear agency will tell the Security Council next week that his inspectors need more time in Iraq, but that Saddam Hussein gets "quite satisfactory" grades for his cooperation, an agency spokesman said Friday.

"Their report card will be a `B,'" International Atomic Energy Agency spokesman Mark Gwozdecky told The Associated Press.




5. If you want to talk about accountability, lets hold the Bush administration accountable for the absolute mess and horrific loss of life from the poorly planned war in Iraq, which was based on, all together now, LIES. Lets run down that list of reasons for going to war again.

* First it was 9/11. Bush insisted there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. They abandoned this once it was proven over and over that that was simply untrue.

* Next it was WMD. Even after a lot of evidence to the contrary and a lack of finding any evidence on the ground the bush admin stuck to this one for quite awhile, only very recently finally admitting there were no WMD and that they knew it all along anyway.

* Over-lapping with the WMD nonsense was the idea of liberating the Iraqis. A noble enough goal I suppose, but I don't think 10k+ iraqi deaths, an almost entirely crippled infrastructure, an increase of localized terrorism and insurgency as a result of the first two are really an effective way to "liberate" a country. It sounds to me like the cure is worse than the disease.

* Now we have the Bush administration telling us that now the war is about Saddam Hussein's bribery of the Oil for Food officials. Never mind that this program was created and maintained in part by the United States. I'm sure this problem is most definitely worth investigating, but you just do not get to make up your reasons for war after the fact. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I guess that makes me a pinko-lefty lunatic or something for disputing your assertations about "reality". Oh well.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3231546 - 10/08/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

once the heat was off he'd a booted them out again, just like he did several times in the 90's.

Booted them out "several times"? WTF? Source?


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3232223 - 10/08/04 08:35 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

it seems that you saying this:

if you support a good cause, it's perfectly ok if you don't participate directly.

but if you support that which is wrong, you must actively participate to avoid contradiction....

for instance... if i support the genocide of black sudanese, but i'm not currently over there helping kill them, i am a hypocrite?





If you support a policy that sends others out to DIE unjustly for your cause then you should join the cause that others are DIEING for.


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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Xlea321]
    #3232229 - 10/08/04 08:38 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

check the other thread.

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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: 1stimer]
    #3232237 - 10/08/04 08:42 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

If you support a policy that sends others out to DIE unjustly for your cause then you should join the cause that others are DIEING for.

ok. so if it's an unjust cause, and people get killed doing it, then you have to actively participate if you support it, or you are a hypocrite?

who decides what is unjust? does anyone support a cause that they believe to be unjust?

do you support the catching of crabs off the coast of alaska? i, as a crab rights activist, deplore this practice. if you support this detestable practice, then you should be out there on the front lines, risking your life to get those crabs!  :smirk:

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3232283 - 10/08/04 09:01 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I stand by the statement:
If you support a policy that sends others to DIE for your cause then you should join the cause that others are DIEING for.
Polls show that the war in Iraq is the #1 issue people will be voting on this election. Because an overwhelming number of people that will be voting for george bush are voting as if the Iraq cause is the most important thing in there life it shows that Iraq is the number one voting issue. These people should go fight in the war if it is that important to them.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

Edited by 1stimer (10/08/04 09:03 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: 1stimer]
    #3232307 - 10/08/04 09:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

If you support a policy that sends others to DIE for your cause then you should join the cause that others are DIEING for.

how do you feel about space exploration?

if you support it, when do you plan on becoming an astronaut?

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3232457 - 10/08/04 09:39 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You're making good points about supporting a cause vs. participating in it, but when it comes to war I challenge all war supporters to put their lives on the line if they truely believe in this cause.







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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3232468 - 10/08/04 09:48 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You're making good points about supporting a cause vs. participating in it, but when it comes to war I challenge all war supporters to put their lives on the line if they truely believe in this cause.

would you support an international coalition of troops to stop the ongoing genocide in sudan and restore peace there?

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3232490 - 10/08/04 09:55 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

That's not what we're talking about. That's a much more worthy cause, but I would leave that decision to the UN.








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Anonymous

Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3232529 - 10/08/04 10:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

That's not what we're talking about. That's a much more worthy cause...

are you saying you would support such an effort?

would failing to go to sudan yourself make you a hypocrite?

...or does this whole thing apply only to "unjust" wars (as determined by who?)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: ]
    #3232568 - 10/08/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I would support whatever action the UN recommended to deal with the situation.






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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3232672 - 10/08/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EonTan:

The analogy should be Cops just letting murderers and robbers go, becasue someone might get hurt in the act of holding them accountable for their crimes.

blah blah blah




1. There were no WMD
2. Iraq was not an immediate threat to the US

With that being said, where in the US Constitution does it say that the Federal Government has the role to impose regime change on foreign nations? Why should the US be the Global Police force?

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: unbeliever]
    #3232863 - 10/08/04 11:40 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

As a jew I would say War can be a good thing. Regardless of the chaos involved with the war itself. It isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.

It isn't how good or bad saadam is compared to other wackos in the world. It was how he made inspections impossible for a decade, and how dangerous that can be, when he had intent to build WMD, and Possibly had them, which no one but him knew either way for sure 100%.

The inspectors THEN were not saying they were clean. READ BUTLERS ACCOUNT OF THE EVENTS. He was in charge of UNSCOM. The only thing he agrees with you on was that we needed to get the rest of the world involved in the WAR, if we went to war. Something that was CLEARLY never going to happen. So the decision was made to do it without the majority.

You seem to focus on the most recent Inspections leading up to the war, and CHOOSE to only focus on those without putting them in context to the rest of the ten years of failed inspections. INSPECTIONS FAILED. You can't make a search of a country without them completely consenting. Consent never occured since Saadam initially agreed. It was a search here not there, and at this time not that time, and ignore the trucks driving out the back gate while we hold you at the front gate Inspection process.

Bush was not the only one to support war. So you better start calling half of america EVIL.

I don't feel like I was lied to because I am aware of what happened in the region since World war 2. not just since 9/11/01, not just since 1991.

to me only those who jumped on the wagon post 9/11/01 seem to be most likely to call Bush a liar.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Vvellum]
    #3233013 - 10/08/04 12:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The constituition protects me from my governmnet. It is elected officials that decide how and when we use our military force.

Yes there were no WMD found. Unfortunaetly it took a war TO KNOW THAt FOR a FACT. So stop using that as an argument for why the war was wrong at the time we invaded Iraq.

The US should only be envolved in situations that effect American citizens. Maybe someday you will realize that the USA is truley a free country. It citizens get to direct the governmnet in its actions. Apparently enough people in this country decided it was a good Idea to get envolved. There elected officials then sent the country to war. Americans asked, Americans recieved.

to a good portion of American citizens National security was in jeopardy in relation to Iraqi governmnent. You just don't agree. Under Clinton, I wanted more done with Iraq. Nothing changed for me when Bush took Office on the Iraq issue.

What happens around the world directly effects the USA. WE are involved economically with everybody. We are involved militarily with everybody that has one. This is just the reality of the world.

Hell I wan't peace. I wan't equal rights for everybody. Unfortunately the only way to get that would be FACISM and total world domination. I don't want that, but I certainly am not naive enough to think that IMAGINE is going to get us there either.

I don't want to own Iraq, or rob them of anything. I just wanted there leader to be held accountable, and to be absolutely certain he had NO WMD. We learned in the time period from the invasion to now, what we could not learn in ten years. According to the UN position on the effects of Sanctions in IRaq over that period of time, Less civilian lives were lost in the war also.

War has casualties. Both military and civilian. The USA spends billions of dollars trying to limit civilian loss in war.

As far as international police force, no i don't think that is what we should be. I don't believe in the drug war. I do believe we have the right to defend ourselves.

I think the invasion of Iraq was defensive.

The notion that he was totally surrounded, and completely cut off from the rest of the world is absurd. Shit, some of our own allies were violating the sanctions with him. The borders were certainly porous as well. If he had them, he was a THREAT. since we now nknow he did not have them at the time of invasion, it is easy to call everyone who supported the effort to find out for sure LIARS, if you never supported the invasion to begin with, regardless of Saadam having them or not.

Did it make America look stupid. YES. Did it divide the world a little more. Yes. Do I feel safer without Saadam YES YES YES YES.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3233059 - 10/08/04 12:34 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe someday you will realize that the USA is truley a free country. It citizens get to direct the governmnet in its actions.




Untrue. The government tells the brainwashed masses what to believe. The people become conditioned and then support the actions of the government, all the while thinking that this is what they really believe.

You're against the drug war. Good, so you can understand how people are only shown ONE SIDE of the story. They form beliefs and vote based on the side of the story that they have been shown. Do you really think America wants to lock up pot smokers? If America was shown both sides of the story, what do you think the outcome would be?



Quote:

Do I feel safer without Saadam YES YES YES YES.




I made an analogy in another thread about this: a married guy goes out and spends this months rent money on a big screen TV. His wife starts complaining about it. The husband says "Our lives will be better with a big screen TV( YES YES YES YES)". The husband is right, the TV will make the couple happier but they will pay DEARLY for it because the husband has used the rent money to buy it.

Overthrowing Saddam was a luxury that the US can not afford.






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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3234232 - 10/08/04 06:30 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

No in a free country you get to find out the otherside for yourself. Hence the reason why I don't support the war on drugs. The knowledge is there it just isn't taught in school.

America is free. I am not brainwashed by anyone. I do share a consensual reality with those around me, but this is not the same thing. See you and I share a consenual reality, while disagreeing on what to do with it. How do you think it possible that you managed to escape the brainwashing?
America has been shown both sides of the Marijuana debate and they have made there choices be known. If America supported legal pot, no canidate would be opposed to it. You don't get elected by going against what your voters want. YOU AT LEAST CAN'T GET RE-ELECTED. The information is out there, it has been for THOUSANDS of years, people just disagree with you based on the same information. NO-ONe is brainwashed.

Without a NATION, there is no future. Security first, everything else second. You are comparing buying a luxury(BIG SCREEN TV) to securing your ability to work. You have to Have a secure nation, before you can even think about having somewhere to pay rent to live at, or buy your TV instead.

You take an extraordinary amount of Freedom for granted. Freedom that was EARNED through WAR.

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OfflineAhHaHaHa
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3234317 - 10/08/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html

I ask you to read this whole article and you make the descision. No one knows Saddam better than one of his own. And you cant say the this is political since it was published in 2000.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3235993 - 10/09/04 09:32 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yes there were no WMD found. Unfortunaetly it took a war TO KNOW THAt FOR a FACT.

Or to give the weapons inspectors a few more months? The problem with that of course was they would have ascertained there were no WMD and Bush would have had no justification to launch an illegal invasion. It was vital to remove the inspectors before they revealed everything Bush was saying was complete and utter bullshine.

Do I feel safer without Saadam YES YES YES YES.

You feel safer? Why? Have you been been hiding under your bed for the last 10 years petrified that Saddam was coming to get you? Saddam had no WMD, he had no connection with al-qaeda. What were you so afraid of?


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Xlea321]
    #3236646 - 10/09/04 02:38 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

He was afraid of realizing that he was brainwashed.


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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: EonTan]
    #3236711 - 10/09/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, we're getting off topic here with the drug legalization thing, but no, America has not been shown both sides. Forget legalizing drugs, even legalizing POT is still seen as a fringe issue that only stoners talk about. It's not taken seriously at all.





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3236719 - 10/09/04 02:57 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I do think that the idea of decriminalizing pot is becoming more mainstream. Here in California, small amounts were decriminalized in 2000.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: silversoul7]
    #3236733 - 10/09/04 03:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, California is a lot more progressive. In the bible belt, they think pot possession is grounds for execution.







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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Xlea321]
    #3243101 - 10/11/04 01:17 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The weapons inspectors had ten years to convince me. They did not. Blame Saadam. Just three more months, the check is in the mail, my dog ate my homework!!

Yes I feel safer. No I wasn't hiding under my bed. I was scared that the world was going to let Saadam get away with VIOLATING his own agreements that kept him in power after the gulf war. I actually believe people should be held accountable for their actions, unlike you(unless it is the USA).

Knowing that there were no WMD at the time of invasion, the war does seem Stupid now. As I stated before, unfortuanetly DUE TO SAADAM, it took the war to know. Inspectors FAILED over and over and over, to get complete unobstructed access to Iraq, which was in direct violation of Iraqs own agreements. No logic can disagree with that.

The only real argument you are posing is would it be justified knowing that there were no WMD, at the time of invasion. Since THAT was not the reality, It really doesn't matter to me. I am not voting Kerry or Bush. I don't have to hate America, and hate Bush to vote for someone else. I'm free to vote Libertarian, and that is what I will do.

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Re: Cheney: War was justified BECAUSE NO WMD's FOU [Re: Learyfan]
    #3243164 - 10/11/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The information is out there.

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