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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227387 - 10/07/04 02:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

He wasn't being left to his own devices

i know that. how do you think saddam hussein should have been dealt with?


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227393 - 10/07/04 02:15 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

how do you (a presumably non-evil, non-brainwashed person) think hussein should have been dealt with?


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227412 - 10/07/04 02:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

At least we can get this silly business of WMD behind us.

I am still wondering where the WMD came from in the disrupted terrorist attack in Jordan.

Here is my prediction: We still don't know the full story.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227419 - 10/07/04 02:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
He wasn't being left to his own devices

i know that. how do you think saddam hussein should have been dealt with?




Same way as before. Containment was working. I feel the war in Iraq is a bit like taking a group of commandos into prison to execute some guy with a life sentence and no chance of parole. Killing a bunch of other prisoners, guards in the process and losing a bunch of our commandos as well. It makes no sense.

Personally I would also apply stricter sanctions and inspections on Iraq's neighbors. I would also put a lot of money into alternate fuel research so we can have a more legitimate claim of impartiality towards how we deal with the middle east in general.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227427 - 10/07/04 02:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I would have let the UN do their job. And don't tell me that they weren't allowed to. That's bullshit. As TTC said, Blix gave them a "B", which means they were cooperating.

Stop looking for bullshit reasons to defend our evil oppressors.




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InvisibleCJay
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227432 - 10/07/04 02:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry but I possess foresight in far greater quantities then Cheny.

But that aside, it has already been stolen. Iraq is an occupied territory, its resources and its soil are under the control of a puppet government installed by the invaders. The invaders rule the country with their military, and the Iraqi's have no control of their country and their resources. Effectively the place is owned by the invaders, this is the fruit of their conquest. To have taken ownership of someother's home and everything in it by force, in other words: taking it from them,is stealing.

Now you will probably say: 'they didn't own it, Saddam did'. Well they had more of a share in it then now, and even if they didn't - well what fucking good has stealing it from Saddam done for the people anyway if only to enforce a dictatorship from afar?

Yeh the Iraqi's really have it good.


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227469 - 10/07/04 02:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Same way as before. Containment was working.

then why did the UN have to issue resolution after resolution condemning iraq's noncompliance? why were inspections being intermittently obstructed whenever hussein felt he could get away with it? how long would the people of iraq have to suffer under this policy of "containment"?


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227481 - 10/07/04 02:34 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I would have let the UN do their job.

so basically... the status quo. see my previous response.

As TTC said, Blix gave them a "B", which means they were cooperating.

when? iraq's compliance was intermittent. there were good times and there were bad times.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227485 - 10/07/04 02:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Same way as before. Containment was working.

then why did the UN have to issue resolution after resolution condemning iraq's noncompliance? why were inspections being intermittently obstructed whenever hussein felt he could get away with it? how long would the people of iraq have to suffer under this policy of "containment"?




Well for one, my own "containment" strategy (assuming I was president or whatever) would include a pointed effort at civil relief for the citizens of Iraq or whatever country it was applied to.

As for your other points, no I don't entirely blame Saddam for his attitude toward the western countries coming into his country, bombing, spying, laying down restrictions and sanctions that were WORKING but then continuing to bomb and ultimately invade and attempt to conquer. It's like being busted by a cop for something, they yell freeze and you do, you stop dead in your tracks. But the cop keeps yelling at you, harassing and then decide to just shoot you anyway.


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227556 - 10/07/04 02:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

July 1994 - Iraq destroys 480,000 liters of chemical agents in accordance to demands of the UNSCOM. (Oldaker 1996, 2)

14 June 1996 - UNSCOM inspectors begin dismantling a biological weapons facility in central Iraq, despite pleas from Baghdad to salvage some dual-use items. (Reuters, 14 June 1996)

End October 1997 - Iraq refuses entry to three Americans on a team of UN arms inspectors, and warns Iraqi anti-aircraft guns might fire upon US U-2 spy planes if surveillance flights continue. The UN sends a high-level diplomatic mission to resolve the budding crisis and Iraq delays the expulsion order against the American inspectors. (Washington Post, 3 November 1997, A1; Financial Times, 5 November 1997, 6)

12 November 1997 - The UN Security Council unanimously approves a travel ban for senior Iraqi officials and demands that Iraq stop interfering with UN weapons inspectors. Iraq insists that the weapons teams have fewer Americans. When Iraq refuses to comply with UN demands, the weapons inspectors leave the country. Fears mount that Iraq could revive chemical and biological weapons programs without the oversight of the international community. Russia and France push for a diplomatic solution to the crisis, while Washington does not rule out a resort to the use of force. The United States increases its military presence in the Gulf. (Washington Post, 13 November 1997, A1; Washington Post, 18 November 1997, A22)

21 November 1997 - After intense diplomacy by Security Council members, particularly Russia, Iraq agrees to allow UN weapon inspectors back into the country. Russia agrees to push for concessions, such as the easing of the UN sanctions, in return. The Security Council rebuffs a Russian request to declare Iraq free of nuclear weapons and nearly free of prohibited missiles. (Washington Post, 21 November 1997, A1; New York Times, 22 November 1997, A1)

16 January 1998 - A weapons inspection team leaves Iraq after being barred for three days from conducting an inspection. The UN Security Council deplores Iraq's decision, which constitutes a clear violation of UN resolutions. (CRS, 6 March 1998, 3)

17 January 1998 - Saddam Hussein announces that Iraq will expel all weapons inspectors if sanctions against Iraq are not removed within six months. (CRS, 6 March 1998, 3)

3 February 1998 - US Secretary of Defense Cohen warns that if diplomacy fails, the United States will wage a "significant" military campaign against Iraq, "far more than what has been experienced in the past." (CRS, 6 March 1998, 5)

29 April 1998 - UNSCOM chief arms inspector Richard Butler reveals that experts discovered mustard gas in Iraqi artillery shells found at an ammunitions depot in 1996. The discovery raises new questions about similar shells that remain unaccounted for. (New York Times, 29 April 1998, A10)

24 June 1998 - Contradicting claims it never weaponized the substance, UNSCOM chief Butler says tests at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland show Iraq loaded deadly VX gas onto a missile. Iraq claims bias in the test of warhead pieces; similar weapons fragments are tested in Switzerland and France to see whether the finding can be confirmed. (USIS, 24 June 1998; New York Times, 25 June 1998, A10)

23 July 1998 - Iraqi authorities refuse to give UNSCOM documents that list weapons used by the Iraqi Air Force during the war with Iran. (Washington Post, 24 July 1998, A28)

5 August 1998 - Iraq restricts activities of IAEA and orders an end to all UNSCOM inspections, except for those specifically approved by the Iraqi government. It allows long distance monitoring with video camera, as well as air, water and soil sampling, to continue. President Hussein demands that UNSCOM be restructured, Butler replaced, and that UNSCOM move its headquarters out of the United States. (Financial Times, 6 August 1998, 1; USIS, 6 August 1998; New York Times, 15 September 1998, A3; Wall Street Journal, 2 October 1998, A16)

3 September 1998 - In a letter to Congress, President Clinton denounces Iraq's failure to allow weapons inspections, warns that, "If the Council fails to persuade the Iraqi regime to resume cooperation, all other options are on the table ." (USIS, 3 September 1998)

14 September 1998 - Iraq's National Assembly threatens to end all cooperation with inspectors unless the Security Council resumes regular reviews of the sanctions. (New York Times, 15 September 1998, A3)

31 October 1998 - Iraq stops all cooperation with weapons inspectors, banning arms inspectors from visiting sites that have already been inspected and were being monitored by UNSCOM. Baghdad says sensors and monitors placed in sites can continued operating and also exempt the IAEA from its latest decision. (Financial Times, 2 November 1998, 1; Wall Street Journal, 2 November 1998, A4)

20 November 1998 - Shortly after UNSCOM inspectors resume their duties in Iraq, the Iraqi government refuses to provide 12 documents relating to weapons inventories. Iraqi Deputy Foreign Minister Riyadh al-Qaysi accuses the inspectors of "unjustifiably" prolonging their work, thereby extending the embargo. (Washington Post, 24 November 1998, A25; 18 November 1998, A33; Financial Times, 24 November 1998, 6)

19 December 1998 - After four consecutive nights of bombing, the US and Britain end the attack on Iraq. President Clinton declares Operation Desert Fox a success at degrading Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction program and his conventional military capacity. In all, there were about 600 bombs and 415 cruise missiles fired at approximately 100 targets. (Washington Post, 20 December 1998, A1; New York Times, 20 December 1998, 24; Wall Street Journal, 21 December 1998, A3; 22 December 1998, A20)

15 December 1999 - Iraq refuses to allow IAEA inspectors to check Iraq's uranium stockpile as required under the 1968 nuclear nonproliferation treaty. (New York Times, 15 December 1999, A13; 16 December 1999, A5)

19 December 1999 - Iraq officially rejects resolution 1284 and demands unconditional lifting of sanctions. (Washington Post, 19 December 1999, A54)

**********************************************************************

UN resolutions:

UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991

* "Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security."

* Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.

* Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.

UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991

* "Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.

* "Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.


* Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.

* Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.

* Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

* Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.

* Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.

* Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.

UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994

* "Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.

* Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.

* Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.

UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996

* Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996

* "Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997

* "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

* Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.


UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997

* "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

* Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.


UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997

* "Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.

* Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq."

UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998

* "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.

* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998

* "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.

* Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.


UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999

* Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).

* Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities.

* Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.


* Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.

***************************************************************************


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227579 - 10/07/04 02:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

And yet. No WMD. No WMD programs. No credible progress towards WMD programs. You're right, I don't think it can GET much clearer.


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Edited by unbeliever (10/07/04 02:54 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227618 - 10/07/04 02:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

And yet. No WMD. No WMD programs. No credible progress towards WMD programs.

at the time of the invasion. the fact that there was no material WMD threat in iraq at the precise moment of the invasion says nothing. read the writing on the wall man.


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OfflineTao
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227624 - 10/07/04 02:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

it was towards the very end of the inspections. sorry, i'd give a link but searching for "hans blix inspection b" isn't leading to fruitful searches and im too sick right now to spend time combing through the internet for something that i remember very clearly.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227659 - 10/07/04 03:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
And yet. No WMD. No WMD programs. No credible progress towards WMD programs.

at the time of the invasion. the fact that there was no material WMD threat in iraq at the precise moment of the invasion says nothing. read the writing on the wall man.




If there was none of that at the time of the invasion.. then WHY THE FUCK DID WE INVADE?

Quote:


If Iraq had disarmed itself, gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction over the past 12 years, or over the last several months since [UN Resolution] 1441 was enacted, we would not be facing the crisis that we now have before us.
- Colin Powell, interview with Radio France International, Feb. 28, 2003




Quote:

The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq.
- George W. Bush, Nov. 23, 2002




Unique and urgent my ass. No WMD or WMD programs. No aggressive behavior to his neighbors in almost a decade at that point. Meanwhile we have North Korea with nukes and a delivery system, Iran with nukes and an active nuclear weapons proram. If any country presents an URGENT threat, it's those countries.


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: unbeliever]
    #3227695 - 10/07/04 03:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

If there was none of that at the time of the invasion.. then WHY THE FUCK DID WE INVADE?

because it was only a temporary situation that would be reversed at saddam hussein's earliest convenience.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227714 - 10/07/04 03:17 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

You can not be reasoned with. You're listing dates years ago in which Saddam didn't comply as if the invasion was revenge for those instances. The fact is, Saddam WAS complying with UN inspectors in the months leading up to the war. You know it. I know it. Quit bullshitting.

You can not find a logical reason for this war no matter how hard you try. Are you afraid that your whole world view will crumble if you accept the truth?






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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227748 - 10/07/04 03:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

You can not be reasoned with.

come on learyfan. we've both been posting here since before the invasion. after looking at different evidence, i've changed my position on this one several times, and i'm sure you've read the posts i've made about it. don't talk to me like i'm brainwashed and impossibly stubborn on this issue. i can be reasoned with. it is reason that caused me to arrive at my current position, and should i abandon it, it will be reason that prompts me to do so.

You're listing dates years ago in which Saddam didn't comply as if the invasion was revenge for those instances.

no i'm not. i don't see how you could misunderstand me so completely when i've very clearly explained the significance of hussein's noncompliance. it is important not because it justifies us in some kind of quest for vengeance, but because it should provide a reasonable person with a fairly good understanding of just how shallow hussein's sudden turnaround in the late winter of 2001 really was.

Are you afraid that your whole world view will crumble if you accept the truth?

pffft. i've changed my mind about the iraq war several times without my "world view" crashing down. i'm not afraid to do it again if i learn that that's what the facts of the situation actually call for.


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Anonymous

Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: Learyfan]
    #3227781 - 10/07/04 03:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

you should note that i am not a supporter of the bush administration, nor am i a republican, nor do i buy the opinions of the PNAC, nor do i view fox news.

i am a registered libertarian and i will be voting for michael badnarik in november. the libertarian party condemns the invasion of iraq, as does michael badnarik, as do a great many libertarians, including most of those on this board.

i've split with the "party line" on this one, and i think most of your diagnoses of me being "brainwashed" or worried about my "world view" coming down around me are pretty off the wall. i can think for myself thank you.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3227958 - 10/07/04 03:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
If there was none of that at the time of the invasion.. then WHY THE FUCK DID WE INVADE?

because it was only a temporary situation that would be reversed at saddam hussein's earliest convenience.




What you're failing to see is that Saddam had no "earliest convenience". Not if the inspections and sanctions remained in place.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: WMD: The Final Judgement [Re: ]
    #3228041 - 10/07/04 04:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I guess.

It just seems pretty clear cut to me that it doesn't matter what he had done in the past and that what mattered was that the inspections were going well at the most crucial time - right before the war. The war was unnessessary and Bush is now almost 4 times the killer Bin Laden is.




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