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OfflineInnernaut
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Registered: 09/16/03
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Please help me understand genetic degeneration
    #3222504 - 10/06/04 01:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I have been trying to determine the answer to this question for a while now and only end up confusing myself. I think I know the answer then I think I don't. Please help clarify this for me.

I will intro with an excerpt from "The Mushroom Cultivator" by Stamets/Chilton on page 51.

"After transferring mycelium from agar to grain, further transfers can be conducted from these grain cultures to even more grain filled jars. A schedule of successive transfers from the first innoculated grain jar, designated G-1, through two more 'generations' of transfers (G-2, G-3 respectively) will result in an exponential expansion of mycelial mass. If for instance, 10 jars were inoculated from an agar grown culture (G-1), they could further inoculate 100 jars (G-2) which in turn could go into 1000 jars (G-3). As one can see it is of critical importance that the first set of spawn masters be absolutely pure for it may inoculate as many as 1000 jars! Innoculations beyond the third generation of transfers are not recommended. Indeed, if a contamination rate above 10% is experienced at the second generation of transfers, then consider G-2 a terminal stage."

Okay. I understand how g2g works, and how growth is exponential. One thing I don't understand is why third generation transfers are more succeptible to contamination. A friend has had a very bad experience with this. Using 10 grain jars ---> 100. Then taking 10 from that hundred and ---> 100 more. After the third time bacterial contamination rates soared, and those that survived had little or no fruits.

My second question is regarding this same principle but with karo. Does this degeneration occur? With karo one has the potential to turn 1-3 cc of spore solution into almost an infinity of living mycelial cultures. In my mind mycelium growing on grain or on karo are both susceptible to this degeneration. Why does this occur, and what is a good way to ensure that you are dealing with a "good" culture before innoculation of grain jars? Is there an easy way around this without using agar? Are the spores obtained from printings yielded from these potentially weaker generations proportionally weaker as well? I hope someone has some experience with this because it has been a plague in the back of my mind for quite some time... Thank you for your help.


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Offlinediscman1
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Registered: 08/24/04
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #3222550 - 10/06/04 02:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I would be interested to know why this happens, too.

Why should the genetics ever degrade? If it is a clone, it should be exactly the same, no?

A friend of mine has been cloning the same single cannabis plant for the last 10 years, and it's still the same plant that he started out with. God only knows how many generations he's gone through.. hundreds.

Although I guess comparing plants to fungi is apples to oranges, but still... the idea intrigues me.


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OfflineInnernaut
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Registered: 09/16/03
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #3222600 - 10/06/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

My thoughts exactly. I can understand why the degeneration would occur from spores collected from generation after generation, but to me, when you transfer living mycelium from one jar to another it is only growing larger and larger, not reproducing. The rainforest contains acres upon acres of 1 huge mycelial network... why would degeneration occur for the home cultivator?


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #3222641 - 10/06/04 02:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Spawn purity and senescence are two different things.

What Stamets is referring to is the purity of spawn. Even after you sterilise grain, you must assume there are still contaminants within. What you must do is provide an environment that will allow the mycelium to fully colonise the substerate before contams can take hold. This is why purity concerning the initial agar to grain transfers is so important. This is also why he doesn't recommend going beyond g3. This all has nothing to do with genetics.

Senescence is genetic degeneration most likely caused by virus. Stamets says this could possibly be treated by incubating cultures at 95 F. for a couple weeks.?.?.


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OfflineInnernaut
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: Olgualion]
    #3224681 - 10/06/04 10:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So this isn't genetic degeneration. It is because you are exposing the the same mycelium to contaminants each successive grain transfer.

So, colonized karo can inoculate both an infinite number of more karo jars and and infinite number of grain jars? Is this correct? You have cleared up a plethora of confusion. Thank you.


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Invisiblenoxy
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #3224884 - 10/06/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)


"So, colonized karo can inoculate both an infinite number of more karo jars and and infinite number of grain jars? "

as Stamets also says about liquid inoculation
"whole sets of up to a hundred jars would be made useless"
referring to the disavantage of liquid inoculation
"the water suspends contaminents as well as mycelium"

where G>G contams rise to above 10% at G3


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Please help me understand genetic degeneration [Re: noxy]
    #3226700 - 10/07/04 11:36 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

But what noxy refers to is only if your liquid culture becomes infected. They can be use but not forever...after months (around 6 I've heard is the most they last) it does start to degrade too. I'm not sure why but I havn't heard of liquid cultures lasting past 6 months under normal storage conditions (in a dark fridge or cool place, as opposed to some air tight scientific 2000 dollar gizmo that might exist and prolong storage). You got it on the grain to grain..its not degrading over generations because your not actually changing the generations. Just making the same generation and culture do 10,000 jars.

I found the same after time (3-5 transfers depending on the strain and substrain) though, bacterial contams on the rise alot after that and wouldnt fully colonize. No problems have been noticed after almost 10 culture syringes were made from the same culture (20 and 50 cc syrines) at different times. It's they way to go.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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