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 nanananotehead
The Will or TheWay
Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 450
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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 Is there any candidate running for president.... 
#3219537 - 10/05/04 06:17 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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that is for decriminalizing ALL drugs in America? I see what Cobb and Nader want to do with marijuana, but I am unsure if they want to dercriminalize any other schedule I or II substances.
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CEPHALIC CARNAGE__ CEPHALICCARNAGE.NET
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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: Is there any candidate running for president.... [Re: nanananotehead]
#3219560 - 10/05/04 06:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
Edited by silversoul7 (10/05/04 06:50 PM)
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,213
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 39 minutes, 52 seconds
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 Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3219644 - 10/05/04 06:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
www.badnarick.org
I'm actually considering voting for that guy. I still don't know if i'm voting for him or for Kerry.
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Learyfan]
#3219675 - 10/05/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm don't know either. I'm finding it to be a hard idealology to have faith in. I wish there was some present day model we could look at for reference. A country that's nearly 100% capitalist.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3219686 - 10/05/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said:
I'm don't know either. I'm finding it to be a hard idealology to have faith in. I wish there was some present day model we could look at for reference. A country that's nearly 100% capitalist.
Probably the closest historical example you could would be America at the time of its founding. Then again, we had slavery back then, so obviously that puts a little wrench in the whole equation.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3219758 - 10/05/04 07:16 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said:
I'm don't know either. I'm finding it to be a hard idealology to have faith in. I wish there was some present day model we could look at for reference. A country that's nearly 100% capitalist.
While I believe Libertarianism is exactly what America needs, let me remind someone in your position of this -- a Libertarian administration could never remove the socialism from America in one term. Socialism in America has taken near a century to ferment, there is no way it would be eliminated overnight. The drug laws in this country, on the other hand, could be drastically eliminated in one Presidential term. Even if you don't agree with libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion(I'll work on that  ), a Libertarian administration would be incapable of going so far.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.... [Re: nanananotehead]
#3219775 - 10/05/04 07:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some of Michael Badnarik's position papers:
The War on Drugs
In the 2000 campaign for president, George W. Bush said that the federal government should not interfere with the medical marijuana policies of the several states. Like so many other promises, he went back on his word and has closed down medical marijuana facilities permitted by state governments.
This is an outrage. The federal government has no constitutional authority to interfere with state drug policies. When the federal government outlawed alcohol, it required a constitutional amendment to do so. Nonetheless it has assumed the legal authority to wage its "War on Drugs."
According to nearly every scientific study on the subject, including ones conducted by the government, medical marijuana provides unique relief to patients suffering from cancer, AIDS, glaucoma and other illnesses, and the drug does not have the same addictive properties as alcohol.
The federally approved Marinol contains the psychoactive THC but lacks other cannabinoids crucial to marijuana as an effective medicine. This is one of the many insanities of federal drug policy, which categorizes a plant that has never been shown to kill anyone as more illegal than cocaine, and certainly more illegal than alcohol.
Though smoking marijuana just as smoking tobacco can cause harm to the lungs and respiratory system, the drug can also be ingested and vaporized so as to prevent such unwanted side effects.
On a fundamental level, Libertarians believe that it is the unalienable and constitutional right of individuals to medicate themselves and choose for themselves what to put into their bodies, as long as they live up to the consequences of their actions. The federal government has no proper say in the matter, and state governments violate the rights of the people in their own attempts to enforce morality. The decision to ingest, smoke or consume any drug should be up to the individual, under the advice of his or her physician, when appropriate. Locking people up for trying to relieve their pain is cruel and unusual punishment for an act that hurts no one.
The Drug War has led to some of the worst violations of the constitutional liberties of Americans, as well as to the worst wave of violent crime in American history since Alcohol Prohibition. It has been used to rationalize unlawful searches and seizures, corruption of the court system, no-knock raids, racial profiling, and "civil asset forfeiture" a policy whereby government officials can confiscate private property without even charging anyone with a crime. The War on Drugs, more than anything else, has served as a means of destroying the Bill of Rights. It has also led to excessive taxes and spending, costing more than 40 billion dollars a year to arrest, prosecute and imprison non-violent drug offenders.
Drug Prohibition has caused gang warfare and other violent crime by raising the prices of drugs so much that vicious criminals enter the market to make astronomical profits, and addicts rob and steal to get money to pay the inflated prices for their drugs. On average, drug prisoners spend more time in federal prison than rapists, who often get out on early release because of the over-crowding in prison caused by the Drug War. While violent criminals can usually have their sentences reduced, drug offenders are subject to "mandatory minimums," which strip away judicial discretion and force judges to put users and dealers in prison for decades. This has to stop.
The Drug War also has funded terrorists; providing them with opportunities for enormous profits, and even by giving foreign aid to such regimes as the Taliban as long as they promised to have "tough drug" policies.
The Drug War does not curb demand, it barely reduces supply, however it makes America much more dangerous and much less free.
A Libertarian president would order federal officials to cease and desist in harassing medical marijuana patients and would block federal spending on the War on Drugs. Nonviolent drug offenders would be released from federal prison, and each state would choose its own drug policy, just as each chose its own alcohol policy when alcohol Prohibition was repealed. Libertarians would hope and expect most states to come around and severely reform their policies to make them more humane and less at odds with the Constitution and the American way of life.
Industrial Hemp
Government often prepares the way for oppressive legislation by exaggerating a current danger, or by rhetorically turning harmless people and things into bogeymen.
Certainly this has been the case with industrial hemp. Although it includes a technical exemption for hemp, The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 generally treats hemp like marijuana, its psychotropic cousin. Smoking industrial hemp to "get high" yields about the same result as smoking the evening newspaper; and while the government contends that hemp can be useful as camouflage for marijuana growth, even laymen can easily distinguish between the two.
What makes current federal policy so tragic is that industrial hemp is estimated to have 25,000 constructive uses. Indeed, until recently the qualities of perhaps the world's most useful plant were widely understood and utilized. Ironically, in early 17th Century America, laws existed REQUIRING farmers to grow hemp. Later, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both left glowing references to the plant in their writings.
Hemp even has a record of heroism: During WWII, the U.S. war effort needed hemp-based supplies so badly that it instituted the "Hemp for Victory" program. The beginnings of today's repressive policies were already in place by the late 30s, as a result of propaganda efforts waged against hemp by the petro-chemical and timber industries. However, when America's very survival was threatened, the government exempted farmers and their sons from military service if they'd agree to grow it.
The ahistorical perception that those interested in legalizing hemp cultivation are all drug users has far-reaching economic, ecological and humanitarian effects. Consider just a few of the benefits we're missing out on:
- According to a U.S. Department of Agriculture report, "Hemp Hurds as a Paper-Making Material" (Bulletin No. 404), the core of the hemp stalk produces more than four times more paper than trees in proportion to land area cultivated.
- Raw hempseed oil can be used, without any modification, to power diesel engines.
- Thousands of natural food products, including staples like cheese and milk, are made from hempseed. Its protein content is higher than any plant source except soy and is more usable than soy as well.
- Although anyone can manufacture and sell hemp products in the U.S., it is illegal to cultivate the plant. An untold number of income opportunities, which would easily be supported by the growing demand for ecologically friendly alternatives, are denied the American work force. Availability of overseas hemp is insufficient to meet demand. Jobs?not just in cultivation, but manufacture of goods?are lost.
If the War on Drugs is senseless and unfathomable in light of reality?and it is?the prohibition on cultivating industrial hemp is even more so. Canada and the European Union have more enlightened?and economically sound?hemp policies than the United States.
The Bush Administration has attempted to ban hempseed food products which were formerly exempt from the definition of marijuana; foods that have no harmful effect whatsoever, and which aren't even remotely associated with recreational drug use.
As your President, I would open the way for free-market exploration and exploitation of industrial hemp. I'd veto legislation funding enforcement of laws against it, and I'd lobby Congress to repeal those laws.
Isn't it time we had a leader who defended the economic freedom which so well serves the interests of the American people?
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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allmakescombined
Boss Man
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 384
Loc: My Office
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Learyfan]
#3219833 - 10/05/04 07:38 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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But the Libertarians have no chance of winning.
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Get back to work.
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Ancalagon]
#3219874 - 10/05/04 07:46 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said:
While I believe Libertarianism is exactly what America needs, let me remind someone in your position of this -- a Libertarian administration could never remove the socialism from America in one term. Socialism in America has taken near a century to ferment, there is no way it would be eliminated overnight... Even if you don't agree with libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion(I'll work on that ), a Libertarian administration would be incapable of going so far.
Very true. But what does an idealology taken to a fraction of its potential become? What can be accomplished in four years?
Privatization of education?
Deconstruction of the Federal Reserve?
I love libertarianism on an idealogical level (short of its commitment to the environment, which is very important to me). And I'm sure it could be technically applied. I'll even go so far as to say most people would be happier under it.
But what I worry about is whether it can realistically coexist (or... compete I guess) with the rest of the world. I want to live in the most advanced, most forward thinking country on Earth. Can libertarianism realistically achieve that?
A question that's maybe unrelated: Why do you think no other country has actively moved towards libertarian logic?
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: allmakescombined]
#3219886 - 10/05/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
allmakescombined said:
But the Libertarians have no chance of winning.
You asked:
[Is there any candidate running for president] that is for decriminalizing ALL drugs in America? I see what Cobb and Nader want to do with marijuana, but I am unsure if they want to dercriminalize any other schedule I or II substances.
Michael Badnarik has a MUCH greater chance of winning than David Cobb and, believe it or not, he has a better chance of winning than even Ralph Nader. Michael Badnarik is on 49(including DC) State ballots right now. Ralph Nader, despite the name-recognition, is only on 36 State ballots currently while David Cobb has not even broken 30(he's at 28 including DC). Ballot Access News The Libertarians are certainly not going to win, and their drug policies will certainly not be implemented, if people are afraid to vote their conscience. Stop voting for the lesser of two evils, even if your candidate wins the best you can hope for is evil.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: nanananotehead]
#3220077 - 10/05/04 08:23 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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What's the Libertarian stance on corporate freedom?
Regulating monopolies? Doing anything to prevent corporations from obtaining too much media control? Or does that count as too much government intervention?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
Edited by Phluck (10/05/04 08:30 PM)
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Phluck]
#3220100 - 10/05/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
What's the Libertarian stance on corporate freedom?
Libertarians recognize that only individuals have rights. Corporations do not, and thus would not be able to get the special treatment that they get under current law.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220243 - 10/05/04 08:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've read some libertarian literature that doesn't take that stance, is that the stance of the american Libertarian party? I couldn't find anything about this on their website. I'm not referring to corporate welfare, I'm talking about corporate power.
Also, if we're privatizing so many government services, doesn't that take the control of these services out of the hands of democratically elected officials, and into the hands of appointed leaders?
Do you support the elimination of public television and radio, and publicly funded art?
Is replacing the public education system with a free market one going to give an equal opportunity to all kids?
Eliminating government funding and regulartion of medical research? Do libertarians think this kind of thing is good news?:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_9_28/ai_107180861
http://www.msnbc.com/news/937302.asp?cp1=1
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Phluck]
#3220290 - 10/05/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
I've read some libertarian literature that doesn't take that stance, is that the stance of the american Libertarian party? I couldn't find anything about this on their website. I'm not referring to corporate welfare, I'm talking about corporate power.
There are differences of opinions among libertarians, but in general, principled libertarians will tell you that only individuals have rights(which is why it's such bullshit to see people try to argue that the 2nd ammendment refers to a "community right").
Quote:
Also, if we're privatizing so many government services, doesn't that take the control of these services out of the hands of democratically elected officials, and into the hands of appointed leaders?
Yes, but remember that when government controls a service, there's lots of bureacracy and no competition, and it is competition which helps people get a good product for a good price.
Quote:
Do you support the elimination of public television and radio, and publicly funded art?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Quote:
Is replacing the public education system with a free market one going to give an equal opportunity to all kids?
Is public education currently providing equal opportunity to all kids? Equal opportunity is a myth. However, public school(or even any school) is not necessary for a well-educated populace. A century ago, a large segment of the population was homeschooled or even self-taught.
Quote:
Eliminating government funding and regulartion of medical research? Do libertarians think this kind of thing is good news?:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_9_28/ai_107180861
http://www.msnbc.com/news/937302.asp?cp1=1
No, but the beauty of science is that your work is put up for examination by the entire scientific community, and there are plenty in that community who are quite eager to discredit the findings of others. This way, they can keep each other in check, much like how competition keeps businesses in check.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220312 - 10/05/04 09:07 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I hear libertarians rattle off a lot of statistics from the past. And all this would be great if it were 1806. But it's not. How does libertarianism know that its polcies will work today and that we'll be able to cohabitate with the rest of the world, which is very far from libertarian ideals?
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3220333 - 10/05/04 09:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said:
I hear libertarians rattle off a lot of statistics from the past. And all this would be great if it were 1806. But it's not. How does libertarianism know that its polcies will work today and that we'll be able to cohabitate with the rest of the world, which is very far from libertarian ideals?
What has changed? Can you outline some specific scenarios that exist today in which Libertarianism would not work?
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3220352 - 10/05/04 09:12 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said:
I hear libertarians rattle off a lot of statistics from the past. And all this would be great if it were 1806. But it's not. How does libertarianism know that its polcies will work today and that we'll be able to cohabitate with the rest of the world, which is very far from libertarian ideals?
Well, if someone can show me what changes have taken place since 1806 which would reduce the effectiveness of homeschooling or self-education, I'd like to hear it. Personally, I feel the History and Discovery channel, combined with the modern-day miracle known as the internet, have given me a better education than I recieved in High School, so I'd say it's even easier nowadays to become self-educated.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess
Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220357 - 10/05/04 09:13 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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except when it comes time to get into college... they'll have no measure on you're intelligence.
i'm not disagreeing with you, just bringing up an argument
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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."
Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Psilygirl]
#3220387 - 10/05/04 09:16 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilygirl said:
except when it comes time to get into college... they'll have no measure on you're intelligence.
i'm not disagreeing with you, just bringing up an argument
Uh, what do you think the function of the SAT and SAT II: Subject Tests are? The College Board which administers these tests is, by the way, not affiliated in any way with government.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Psilygirl]
#3220401 - 10/05/04 09:17 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilygirl said:
except when it comes time to get into college... they'll have no measure on you're intelligence.
i'm not disagreeing with you, just bringing up an argument
Home schooling has become quite standerdized and has become much more of an equal alternative to public schools than it once was. Also I'm not quite sure how it works but a lot kids who are "home schooled" go to places for the home schooling.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Ancalagon]
#3220414 - 10/05/04 09:19 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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The rest of the world has changed. Drastically. How do we reckon with that? Is it realistic to think that a libertarian nation can lead the world? A libertarian nation that still presses gold and silver money?
I love most (though not all) of what I see in libertarianism. And I think it would be extremely successful in an isolationist country. Or maybe even a country with good trade, but moderate economic standing in the world. But, with the world as it stands now, I have to think it would be hard for the rest of the world to deal with a libertarian superpower. Economically, socially and politically.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3220450 - 10/05/04 09:24 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Personally, I don't think the world needs a superpower. It's because of us being a superpower that we have drifted away from the libertarian principles upon which this nation was founded. FYI, Libertarians are not isolationists. We are non-interventionists. We believe in what George Washington advocated on his way out: "Friendship and trade with all nations; entangling alliances with none." Can you explain what's wrong with this, or what's wrong with pressing gold and silver money?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220459 - 10/05/04 09:25 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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it is competition which helps people get a good product for a good price.
That works sometimes, other times it doesn't. Corporations are working for profit, while a government organization is working to provide its service. There's no reason why government agencies have to be so beaurocratic, they could be reformed. Are major media corporations providing us with an excellent product because competition is able to exist? Are the great prices we're paying for CDs a result of competition? What about the speedy efforts the car companies are putting into researching alternative fuels?
Is public education currently providing equal opportunity to all kids? Equal opportunity is a myth. However, public school(or even any school) is not necessary for a well-educated populace. A century ago, a large segment of the population was homeschooled or even self-taught.
A century ago, the illiteracy rates were many, many times higher than they are today. Public education in the US isn't providing an equal opportunity to all kids, because it's currently a joke.
No, but the beauty of science is that your work is put up for examination by the entire scientific community, and there are plenty in that community who are quite eager to discredit the findings of others. This way, they can keep each other in check, much like how competition keeps businesses in check.
In a perfect world, maybe. If we have such a huge problem with this today, why, after we remove regulations and government funding, do you think the problem will go away? The only reason researchers have the freedom to challenge one anothers ideas is because they're able to do research that is completely self controlled, and not forced in a certain direction by their corporate bosses. The reason they have this freedom is because they can get government grants.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Gijith]
#3220477 - 10/05/04 09:28 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The rest of the world has changed. Drastically. How do we reckon with that? Is it realistic to think that a libertarian nation can lead the world?
First of all, it's hard to have a discussion if you're just making vague pronouncements. How, specifically, has the world changed in such a way that makes a libertarian nation incompatible with the rest of it. Second, in what sense do you mean 'lead the world?' If you are talking about our foreign and military policies, it would behoove us to STOP leading the world. Us 'leading the world' is why we are so damn hated. I don't see how us leading the world towards the cause or freedom or leading the world by miles(far moreso than even now) economically is a bad or unworkable situation. Lead by example, not by force.
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A libertarian nation that still presses gold and silver money?
This really needs to be discussed in another thread. The concept of central banking is possibly the most horrible governmental idea ever devised outside of gulags and concentration camps.
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I love most (though not all) of what I see in libertarianism. And I think it would be extremely successful in an isolationist country.
Contradiction in terms. Libertarians are not isolationists, we are non-interventionists. We believe in ties with EVERY SINGLE NATION ON THIS PLANET. Those ties just happen to be economic ties based on the principles of free trade. Maintaining economic ties with all nations and entangling alliances with none will ensure that a country will be loathe to bite the hand that feeds them.
Quote:
Or maybe even a country with good trade, but moderate economic standing in the world. But, with the world as it stands now, I have to think it would be hard for the rest of the world to deal with a libertarian superpower. Economically, socially and politically.
On the contrary, this world will be greatly helped by the United States drawing its tentacles back to within its borders. No more troops in 100+ countries, no more installing puppet regimes, no more pre-emptive wars. All things that I believe are great for both the United States and this planet. Specificity please, why is libertarianism unworkable in the modern age.
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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Phluck]
#3220531 - 10/05/04 09:41 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Phluck said:
it is competition which helps people get a good product for a good price.
That works sometimes, other times it doesn't. Corporations are working for profit, while a government organization is working to provide its service. There's no reason why government agencies have to be so beaurocratic, they could be reformed. Are major media corporations providing us with an excellent product because competition is able to exist? Are the great prices we're paying for CDs a result of competition? What about the speedy efforts the car companies are putting into researching alternative fuels?
Competition-based media may not be all that factual or unbiased, but it gives the viewers what they want. Anyone interested in facts shouldn't rely on news anyway(whether independent or state-run). As for CD's, to be honest, I never really minded paying $20 for a CD. As for gas prices, thank you so much for bringing up another area in which I can point out how government is the problem. Oil is heavily subsidized in this country. If the subsidies were repealed, gas prices would shoot up so high that people would immediately demand alternative fuels, and the oil companies(or those wishing to compete with them) would have to comply or else go out of business.
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Is public education currently providing equal opportunity to all kids? Equal opportunity is a myth. However, public school(or even any school) is not necessary for a well-educated populace. A century ago, a large segment of the population was homeschooled or even self-taught.
A century ago, the illiteracy rates were many, many times higher than they are today. Public education in the US isn't providing an equal opportunity to all kids, because it's currently a joke.
I'd like to see a source on that. I've heard just the opposite.
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No, but the beauty of science is that your work is put up for examination by the entire scientific community, and there are plenty in that community who are quite eager to discredit the findings of others. This way, they can keep each other in check, much like how competition keeps businesses in check.
In a perfect world, maybe. If we have such a huge problem with this today, why, after we remove regulations and government funding, do you think the problem will go away? The only reason researchers have the freedom to challenge one anothers ideas is because they're able to do research that is completely self controlled, and not forced in a certain direction by their corporate bosses. The reason they have this freedom is because they can get government grants.
Do you not see that the government funds research based on its biases? Which research project do you think would be more likely to get a government grant--the harmful effects of marijuana on the lungs, or the medicinal benefits of smoking marijuana?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220563 - 10/05/04 09:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, I gathered that from watching the debate....
I don't really think there's a need for a superpower either. So I'll rephrase the question:
There's a fairly standard set of nations that rank high in many of the areas I'm concerned with - education, health care, economy, environment. It so happens that many of these countries are socialist leaning.
First off, why do you think this is?
Second, do you think a libertarian nation can at least coexist or compete at that level?
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Ancalagon]
#3220727 - 10/05/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said:
First of all, it's hard to have a discussion if you're just making vague pronouncements. How, specifically, has the world changed in such a way that makes a libertarian nation incompatible with the rest of it. Second, in what sense do you mean 'lead the world?' If you are talking about our foreign and military policies, it would behoove us to STOP leading the world. Us 'leading the world' is why we are so damn hated. I don't see how us leading the world towards the cause or freedom or leading the world by miles(far moreso than even now) economically is a bad or unworkable situation. Lead by example, not by force.
I agree. What I mean to say is this: The rest of the modern world is very very far from Libertarian ideals. Will a libertarian nation have difficulty cohabitating with it?
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Ancalagon said:
This really needs to be discussed in another thread. The concept of central banking is possibly the most horrible governmental idea ever devised outside of gulags and concentration camps.
Agreed. Though I haven't heard a strong argument as to why printing gold and silver money is neccessary.
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Ancalagon said:
Contradiction in terms. Libertarians are not isolationists, we are non-interventionists. We believe in ties with EVERY SINGLE NATION ON THIS PLANET. Those ties just happen to be economic ties based on the principles of free trade. Maintaining economic ties with all nations and entangling alliances with none will ensure that a country will be loathe to bite the hand that feeds them.
I'm well aware. I've read Badnarik's position many times. I'm not suggesting Libertarianism promotes isolationism. I'm saying that, if appropriate alterations were made, its ideals would work very well within an isolated country.
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Ancalagon said:
On the contrary, this world will be greatly helped by the United States drawing its tentacles back to within its borders. No more troops in 100+ countries, no more installing puppet regimes, no more pre-emptive wars. All things that I believe are great for both the United States and this planet. Specificity please, why is libertarianism unworkable in the modern age.
Once again, we find ourselves in total agreement. I don't think the US needs to remain as a superpower. But I would like for us to remain in very good economic standing.
I'm not taking the position that libertarianiam in unworkable... I'm edging closer to joining the party. I have concerns as to whether it can realistically coexist with other nations (many of whom are socialist) and still be very strong. I'm openly asking whether people think it can. That's all.
Edited by Gijith (10/06/04 10:42 PM)
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: silversoul7]
#3220811 - 10/05/04 10:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd like to see a source on that. I've heard just the opposite.
http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/illiteracy.asp
Do you not see that the government funds research based on its biases? Which research project do you think would be more likely to get a government grant--the harmful effects of marijuana on the lungs, or the medicinal benefits of smoking marijuana?
While that's an example of something where the government might impose a certain bias, I'm not sure that this bias can be demonstrated the way the corporate bias can, or that this kind of bias has as a negative effect that the corporate bias does. I do know that the Canadian government has provided quite a bit of funding towards medical marijuana research, even well before it was legal for medicinal use.
While the government bias you speak of (if it has actually had any effect on research) might be holding back medical marijuana research, corporate bias is allowing improperly tested drugs to get on the market and concealing tests showing harmful side effects.
BTW.. can you think of any examples other than marijuana where government bias might come into play? Or any actual examples at all where government bias actually HAS come into play?
Oil is heavily subsidized in this country. If the subsidies were repealed, gas prices would shoot up so high that people would immediately demand alternative fuels, and the oil companies(or those wishing to compete with them) would have to comply or else go out of business.
I'm a little skeptical that the only thing holding back alternative fuels is government subsidies for oil companies, especially considering that research for alternative fuels are also subsidied. While this is a pretty silly way of doing things on the part of the government, I'm not sure that removing subsidies is going to magically send oil prices skyrocketing to the point where we'll be seeing a huge increase in alternative research.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Phluck]
#3221053 - 10/05/04 11:04 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Regarding Oil and related industry subsidies, some points to ponder...
How much money is spent on the U.S. military and foreign aid in major oil producing regions? What kind of research could be done with these funds if they weren't directed to helping out favored industries? How much higher would the prices of petroleum products be if the oil companies had to pay directly for protection and the buying off of foreign governments? With these costs no longer hidden in general tax revenue and passed directly onto consumers, how would this affect consumption of petroleum products? If roadways were privatized and the government no longer built roads from general funds, might this discourage the use of automobiles and encourage things like telecommuting (benefiting the environment) while also freeing up funds for other uses?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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nanananotehead
The Will or TheWay
Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 450
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Is there any candidate running for president.. [Re: Evolving]
#3223941 - 10/06/04 05:49 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you for opening my eyes to Badnarik and the Libertarian Party. I am about 99% sure I will vote for him this election.
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CEPHALIC CARNAGE__ CEPHALICCARNAGE.NET
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