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 YidakiMan
Stranger
 
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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 Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid*  [Re: Blue Helix]
#3157169 - 09/20/04 06:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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While most people start with spores, those experimenting with brassinosterioids on pure substrains ought to be even more careful keeping cell lines young. It is my hypothesis that using steriods will lead to quicker mutation.
Think bitch tits.
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
#3157298 - 09/20/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmmmm... What can you say about solubility of bee pollen?
I just tried dissolving 14.85 grams bee pollen into 300ml water (~5%) and got a puke colored opaque liquid. It wouldn't dissolve.
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 Blue Helix
bold hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 9 months, 3 days
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
#3157308 - 09/20/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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If one mixes with wet manure or grain, it doesn't need to dissolve. I am not sure what the liquid culture folks are doing.
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DEATH666
Adonal
Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 475
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
#3159315 - 09/21/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Will amitriptamine work.
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Ah Shit
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Blue Helix
bold hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: DEATH666]
#3163151 - 09/22/04 12:08 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have no idea what amitriptamine is. I think whatever it is, bee pollen is probably cheaper.
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Joshua
Holoman
Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,398
Loc: The Matrix
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 Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
#3164159 - 09/22/04 10:18 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, the pollen isn't very water soluble. The culture will grow well though, and with time the solution will become more clear. There will remain an unsoluble portion at the bottom of the culture. One could experiment with filtration to get a better looking solution.
Joshua
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The Shroomery Bookstore
Great books for inquiring minds!
"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
#3165663 - 09/22/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wow, old thread revived, and with good material added, that's a rare bird.
I've used bee pollen as an additive in liquid culture and find it very helpful, that is if there is a need to speed things up by a few days, or if you don't have lots of spores to start the liquid culture off fast.
Fungus Maximus (I think it was him) once had a bee pollen liquid culture actually fruit. The myc grew so thick, it formed a mat which floated and the mat fruited. (Fuel for the ever present hydro shroom pipe dream?)
I never did use it in grains or bulk substrates though, I didn't know it was so cheap in bulk. Damn, wish somebody had posted that info years ago (or i'd been smart enough to look)...
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
#3166187 - 09/22/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh, forgot to add that I never saw a difinitive reference to the presence or potency of brassinosteroids in bee pollen. I don't think that we should just assume that it's br's at play with bee pollen until that is confirmed, and all the other things that may be in bee pollen are ruled out.
Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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FirstAvailable
enthusiast
Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
#3166288 - 09/22/04 06:34 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycofile said:
I never did use it in grains or bulk substrates though, I didn't know it was so cheap in bulk. Damn, wish somebody had posted that info years ago (or i'd been smart enough to look)...
$8.89/lb is the cheapest I have been able to find. Have you found cheaper?
Quote:
mycofile said:
Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?
Cant bee done.
hehehe getit? bee. hehe bee. 
anyways, from what I have read on sites that sell the shit, bee pollen is just pollen that has rubbed onto bees' asses from various flowers that they have encountered throughout the day. Then the bee farmers somehow harvest that. Hows that for a shitty job. scraping bees ass all day.
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
#3166300 - 09/22/04 06:36 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think that bee pollen is defined as any pollen collected by bees. That being said, brassinosteroids seem to be ubiquitous in the plant kingdom.
"Anybody seen a qualitative/quantitative analysis of bee pollen?"
It probably differs greatly from sample to sample, depending on the region of the bees.
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Joshua
Holoman
Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,398
Loc: The Matrix
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
#3170251 - 09/23/04 02:00 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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According to this source, "Pollen and immature
seeds are the richest sources with a range of 1?
100 ng per g fresh weight."
In Gartz's study the levels used to induce increased growth was .1ppm brassinosteroid. This is equivalent to .00001% w/w. Using a figure of .0000005g brass/g pollen a solution containing 20% bee pollen would be equivalent. This also assumes that the dried pollen has equivalent brass as the fresh pollen.
I do not think/know that Gartz's experiment was anything but qualitative. It is very possible that a lower concentration of brass would also have significant effects.
Bee pollen has a huge variety of amino acids, vitamins, and micronutrients. I think this has a lot to do with the success of pollen in substrates.
Joshua
--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore
Great books for inquiring minds!
"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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Blue Helix
bold hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 9 months, 3 days
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Joshua]
#3173098 - 09/23/04 11:40 PM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I also am not convinced it's the brassinosteroid (thank god for cut and paste) that made the substrate rip through so fast. I think it is more likely the micronutrients too. I only know that I have never seen a bulk substrate colonize as fast as this particular tray did. The casing colonization isn't nothing special so far (casing is inch depth/day 6 and still not through), but the proof in the pudding will be the pin set and associated growth. I know what I think will happen, but there are always surpises in mycology unless you grow only clones in a lab, so you take it as it comes.
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Blue Helix
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
#3178513 - 09/25/04 09:52 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, 8th day on the bee pollen enhanced tray and while the substrate colonization was an all-time record, the casing is doing what it does half the time for me - pretty much nothing. I don't know what's exactly the issue, but casings have always been troublesome with me. I usually go about 1" deep. I seldom have a mold issue, but rather half the time the mycelium just won't touch the casing or grows through it weakly (like this time). There were no obvious problems with this casing except the pH was a little high (8.2) due the fact I started using a different oyster shell supplement and so needed less calcium carbonate powder. Oh well, luckily, I've developed a save technique I call the casing vacuum save, which is taking a wet/dry vac and removing the uncolonized portion of the casing before it contaminates (maybe I'll write a tek someday if there is interest). The casing vacuum save is a lot less damaging than a scrape, which practically ruins the yield since it breaks up the mycellium at a time the mycellium is down to begin with (which is why you are scraping), but even so the vacuum save technique will take yield down quite a bit (closer to the 2 pounds a square foot rather than 4). Still even with a save like this--which I have done a couple times--my yields are seldom as poor as those posted on the Shroomery. The only really Shoomery-like yield I got recently from a tray that didn't go totally south was when I used a coco coir/vermiculite casing, which totally sucked since coco coir totally overlays because it's nutritive (basically I didn't have a casing).
Anyway, I'll let you know how the bee pollen tray pin set goes. I wish this hadn't happened though.
Edited by Blue Helix (09/25/04 09:55 AM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand
Registered: 02/02/03
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
#3209521 - 10/03/04 10:34 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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The pin set was modest with about 40 pins per square foot (a high density tray can easily double that number). I figure the modest pin set was probably due to the fact that the mycellium had a hard time penetrating the casing, which I then vacuumed off except about 1/4". The pins were even but not dense. Some fruits were quite large considering it was the first flush (50 g) but that's to be expected when the pins are not dense. Bruising, the degree of which some suggest is related to strength, was also average, bluing very dark navy blue but not black as I have seen on rare occasion. So, in this particular case, the bee pollen accelerated substrate colonization. The totals are below.
Edited by Blue Helix (10/05/04 12:14 AM)
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Blue Helix
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 Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: mycofile]
#3216762 - 10/05/04 12:10 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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First flush total : 1.42 lb./sq.ft.
Generally, I get about 60% of the total of three flushes from the first flush, so I expect a three-flush total yield of about 2 1/3 lb./sq.ft with this tray. This is on the low side of expected yield (2-4 lbs/sq.ft. average with 4 to 5-inch deep bed), but the result is pretty impressive considering the casing did not colonize well! The most outstanding part of this first flush was the number of larger mushrooms. I averaged one mushroom per square foot that was around 50 grams! Now, for a third flush, that'd be no big deal, but this was a first flush! If I scale stuff up as normally would happen, I fully expect the later flush largest monsters to be on the order of 70-120 grams a piece. I may post a picture if I have time.
 Conclusion: The bee pollen stimulated faster colonization and larger mushrooms.
I will continue to use the bee pollen when available.
Edited by Blue Helix (10/05/04 12:15 AM)
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YidakiMan
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: Blue Helix]
#3515135 - 12/17/04 08:48 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just found this page: http://www.ebeehoney.com/
They sell it for $8.99/pound plus shipping. I am going to be buying some for some trials with King Oyster. That website has some stats on the bee pollen: 35% protein, 55% carbohydrates, 2% fatty acids, and 3% minerals and vitamins. Also one pound of bee pollen = three cups.
That is pretty potent stuff as far as protein content goes. It would be considered a concentrate.It is right up there with bran and cottonseed meal. That could very well explain the increased yields in Gartz's study. In terms of cost, it is a really expensive supplement. As I said cottonseedmeal contains about the same protein and costs only 66 cents a pound online, its cheaper bulk.
So bluehelix, you added about 1/3 lbs to your manure. You don't happen to know how much manure you had?
I am trying to figure out a good supplementation rate to start at...
I don't want to be too long winded here without offering any new information, I'll post a report on my trials, but don't expect too much, its a commercial venture.
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Blue Helix
bold hand
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Re: hormones gartz used? *brassinosteroid* [Re: YidakiMan]
#3820775 - 02/23/05 01:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just to let everyone know, I have since stopped using bee pollen because I found that although it seemed to speed the spawn run a great deal, I have been having trouble with casing penetration with it. It seems to cause the mycellium to grow in a strange way, and I fear that in large doses it causes mycellium to capture new nutriets well but may actually hinder the mycellium to form the type of structure it needs to extent into non-nutritive areas like a casing. This is just a theory but I never had so much casing penetration trouble until I started using the bee pollen. The mycellium would be strong but would not move to the casing, and this was the exact same formula I have used for years. What good is a 6-day spawn run if you got a 50% chance of a successful casing run? I would like other's opinions on this matter, but I have put this bee pollen to rest for now.
Oh, and before I forget, I also did some agar experiments with it. It seems to also alter the mycellium structure significantly on agar too. It's like the mycellium grows in an odd spikey way rather than the traditional linear or rhizomorphic forms (even though it is fast). Maybe I'll take a picture sometime if I try it again.
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