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OfflineHooty
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Xochipilli
    #3206769 - 10/02/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Can anyone explain to me how to pronounce this?



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Offlineneuro
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3207046 - 10/02/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"shok e PiL le"

Here's a page about pronunciation of Aztec words, who knows if it's accurate or not.

http://www.mythome.org/aztecnames.html


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3207149 - 10/02/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Woah I was juuust reading about this when I saw this post :cool:


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OfflineHooty
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: deff]
    #3207359 - 10/02/04 06:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That's how it works most of the time....thanks a lot neuro, I figured you'd know and I had you in mind when I made this post.


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Invisibleobaku
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3210717 - 10/03/04 08:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The site for the Aztec language pronunciation has a few minor problems. It's always a bad sign when they call the language "Nuatla" (wrong spelling used) in the beginning, and later spell it "Nahuatl" (correct spelling) later. Maybe they didn't proofread? I learned to say Xochipilli like "show chi PEE lee" (all words pronounced as they are in English, except for the chi part, which is like the che part of cheap) when I lived in Mexico City. And while I'm at it, the Mazatapec strain should be spelled Mazatepec, like the Mazatec Indians' name. If you do a google search of Mazatapec, all you'll get is mushroom sites that perpetuate the error. However, if you search for Mazatepec, you'll see it's a place name in Mexico. Mazatl means deer in Nahuatl, and tepec means hill: Deer Hill.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: obaku]
    #3210946 - 10/03/04 09:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

How correct are the the pronunciations on the site?


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Invisibleobaku
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3213200 - 10/04/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)


Here is a quick overview of some of what I believe are errors in the linked site:
The name ?Quetzacoatl? is spelled wrong at least once on the linked site. It?s supposed to be ?Quetzalcoatl?. Errors like this make one wonder if this guy really knows what he?s doing. But somebody who refers to a site for ?Magic Names for Mystic Cats? doesn?t inspire much confidence, IMO.
Saying that ?Que Pasa? is pronounced like "kuh passa" suggests that Spanish has a schwa sound, which is not true. He continues, ?If a letter or a group of letters is nearly silent (a schwa by international phonetic conventions)? which is also false. The schwa, written like an upside down ?e?, has a sound like the U in bud or bug. English speakers use it very often, but Spanish speakers find it very difficult, usually impossible, to say. There really are no ?official pronounciation rules? (note his misspelling of pronunciation). There are many systems for phonetic transcription.
He says, ?CU and UC are both pronounced KW as in KWIKLY (quickly).? Actually, cu should sound like the pigeon?s noise, coo. And UC would sound like the uck of duck.
He is wrong when he says, ?The letters U and O may be used interchangeably to represent the sound of O.? Actually, the letter U should sound like the oo in the word ?boo?. O sounds like ?Oh!? but it?s a very quick and short sound.
He says, ?The letter ? may be used in place of Z to represent the sound of S.? Honestly, I?ve never seen Nahuatl written using a ???that?s a letter found more often in the French language.
He says A is pronounced like ?AY as in bay?, but really, the letter A is always supposed to sound like the A in ?ahh? or ?father?.
He says ?TL counts as a single consonant, never as a full syllable. The consonant sounds like 'the TL in FAINTLY without the e sound of the Y? and he is correct here, but later he says ?Camaxtli? sounds like ?kah mash TE lee?, and that contradicts his explanation of the TL sound. ?Kah mash tlee? would be a better way to write it.
Phonetic transcription is tremendously dull for most folks. The Spanish conquistadors wrote Nahuatl as best they could, but they made many changes. The name, ?Montezuma?, for example, probably sounded more like ?moc tay shoo ma?.
Linguists often say that a language becomes unintelligible to its speakers within a thousand years. Have you tried to read Middle or Old English? I can only understand a bit of them. It?s been over 500 years since the conquest of Mexico; so many of the sounds of Nahuatl have evolved into new sounds.
There?s no magic in the sounds IMO. The important thing is that we communicate well, no matter the pronunciation. I?ve worked with less educated Mexican immigrants, and I try to use their speaking patterns, even when I know they are wrong. Still, I think it is very cool that there is all this interest in Nahuatl in the Shroomery.


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Invisibleobaku
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3213213 - 10/04/04 12:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

My bad. The UC sound is like the uke of "duke", not the uck of "duck".


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Invisibleentheoindole
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3215335 - 10/04/04 08:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I always heard the word in my head pronounced like ZO chee pee lee.

Kinda' like when you say Xavier (zavier), the x makes a z sound.


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Offlineneuro
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: obaku]
    #3216113 - 10/04/04 11:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That's a good distinction, what we piece together and what actually was are most likely two different things in this case.


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OfflineHooty
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3216465 - 10/05/04 01:07 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So what's the final consensus on the pronunciation?


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It will never come true


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Invisibleobaku
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Re: Xochipilli [Re: Hooty]
    #3217438 - 10/05/04 10:28 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there is a final consensus. There's classic Nahuatl, modern Nahuatl, and a host of dialects, many of which are mutually unintelligible. It's like saying there's one correct way to speak English. Obviously, there are Brittish and southern USA pronunciations that many central and northern USA speakers would not be able to understand very well. Xochimilco, the famous floating gardens, always sounded like "so chi MIL co" to me. But Xitla, a Mexican place name, much to my amusement, was pronounced like "SHIT la".
Here's a good site that I found:

www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Nahuatl%20transcription:
And it says:

"Thus, Nahuatl written in Roman script is pronounced as if it were Spanish?with a few exceptions.
Words are stressed on the second-to-the-last vowel (excluding U)
U does not occur as an independent vowel.
X is pronounced like English SH.
LL is pronounced like a long L.
TL counts as a single consonant, never as a full syllable.
TL is, in linguistic terms, a lateral?affricate. This is a type of sound found in very few European languages (Welsh being the exception) but commonly found in North and Central American indigenous languages.
CU and UC are both pronounced KW.
HU and UH are both pronounced W.
H without an adjacent U represents a glottal stop (as in "kitten" in some dialects or "go over")
Z is pronounced like English S (as in Mexican, but not European, Spanish)."

But I still dissagree about the UC/CU information here. I'll check into it.


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