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OfflineSpecialEd
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If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation...
    #3204684 - 10/01/04 07:32 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

but won on ideas," it's kind of like commenting on a 100 yard dash and saying, "Steve lost the race, but his training was better."


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3204697 - 10/01/04 07:38 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

:thumbup:


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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3204749 - 10/01/04 07:58 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

this is exactly right.

I don't think pinky's willing to admit what happened at the debate. Both candidates entered into the debate last night with one goal: to pick up undecided voters. These undecided voters have had more than a year to listen to both candidates speak in detail about their policies and plans. So why haven't they made up their minds? Many of them were waiting for the debates. The debates offer them something they don't get from simply examining the issues. It gives them an intense one on one battle between their two choices. This is important. For many undecided voters who can't decide on issues alone, it showcases the candidates' other qualities. These other qualities (composure, ability to speak English, etc) will be what matters to this fraction of the voting public.

I think each campaign understood this last night. Having solid arguments acted as a base. But the real goal was to show that a given candidate could RELAY his positions better and perform under pressure. That is how you pick up undecided voters.

And based on that, John Kerry was clearly on top last night. I still don't think he's a great candidate. I'm still probably not gonna vote for him. But the skill he showed last night is not up for debate.

Saying 'Bush lost on presentation, but won on ideas' is akin to saying 'Bush has a faster car, but didn't win the race cause he barely knows how to drive.'


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Offlinesocratesmind
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Gijith]
    #3204763 - 10/01/04 08:05 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

it's still a two party press-conference. i wouldn't be suprised if it was staged to go this way :P


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: socratesmind]
    #3204767 - 10/01/04 08:07 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

watching it, it almost seemed like Kerry had recieved the questions in advance and Bush hadn't.
:usa: :shiftyeyes: :usa:


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Gijith]
    #3204780 - 10/01/04 08:15 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
watching it, it almost seemed like Kerry had recieved the questions in advance and Bush hadn't.
:usa: :shiftyeyes: :usa:




It seemed like Kerry's statements were staged before hand. It looked like Bush was actually thinking and speaking lastnight. But again, when they tried to refute eachother they just kept repeating themselves. I wouldnt consider myself an undecided voter, but more of an open minded, not secure in my choice as of now, voter. I would love to see other issues disscussed in the next debates. I thought the issue of Iraq was a crappy issue to debate since both have CLEARLY put forth their views and strategies for it. As for their views on other issues, its unclear as to how they wish to accomplish some of them especially concerning the economy. I guess I will have to wait until all the debates are over.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3204841 - 10/01/04 08:40 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Or it's like saying "That Hitler sure is a great orator, lets vote him into office.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Gijith]
    #3204863 - 10/01/04 08:48 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

The Junta will see to it that their boy Kerry gets in office.


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OfflineWorf
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3205067 - 10/01/04 10:35 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

What is this bullshit bush won on "substance"? Fuck no he didn't, he said the same things over and over again. He may have won on lack of substance.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Gijith]
    #3205144 - 10/01/04 11:11 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Gijith writes:

I don't think pinky's willing to admit what happened at the debate.

On the contrary. I understand quite well what happened at the debate. Bush demonstrated yet again what a lame public speaker he is when not reading from a prepared speech, and Kerry demonstrated yet again that he hasn't a clue how to handle foreign policy. But Bush said things that appeal to American voters (though probably not to UN delegates).

I agree with you that the purpose was to firm up the vote and pick off some undecideds. But we disagree on whose message was more effective in accomplishing that. Neither said anything they haven't before, but quite a number of people may not have heard some of the comments before, especially all at one time. Let's face it, we frequent posters to this forum follow politics a lot more closely than does the average American voter, so of course we tend to react with a "Ho-hum, same old same old."

But whose message will sit more comfortably with the average American voter? To summarize Kerry's message: "It's the wrong war at the wrong time, but I'm committed to winning it; We're spending too much on Iraq but I'd send more troops and equipment; I'll bring in more nations to help Iraq, but the other nations currently in Iraq were coerced and bribed and do not provide much assistance; Saddam and Iraq were a grave threat, but Osama is the only terrorist worth pursuing; Terrorists are pouring into Iraq, but Iraq is a distraction to the war on terror."

Kerry believes he can protect America by outsourcing America's defense, by retreating from Iraq as soon as possible, by ceasing research into nuclear weapons, and by sending nuclear fuel to Iran. I'm still completely gobsmacked that he thought this was going to be a winning point with the American voter!

Kerry?s been preaching failure and appeasement his whole life, and now he wants to bring this mindset into the Oval Office. American's won't buy that. He blew it.

Oh, and I still have no freakin' idea what he would do as President to defeat those who have declared war on the US.

In an ideal world, the voters would have a candidate to vote for who was a smooth talker and had a firm grasp of reality. Unfortunately, as is the case in so many US presidential elections, there isn't one available from either of the two major parties.

As for SpecialEd's analogy, "If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation but won on ideas," it's kind of like commenting on a 100 yard dash and saying, "Steve lost the race, but his training was better," that's not an accurate way to look at it at all. In this first debate, it's more like "Kerry's running form was flawless, with springy step, efficient stride, and elegant economy of energy, but Bush crossed the finish line ahead of him."

It's not about winning the debate, it's about winning the election. Kerry's statements in this first debate did nothing to improve his chances of winning the election, and quite probably harmed those chances further.

Let's look at the post-debate Gallup poll, shall we?

A majority (53%) thought Kerry "did a better job in the debate" than Bush (37%). However, when we look at the more detailed questions, what do we see?

Expressed himself more clearly - Kerry 60% Bush 32%
Had a good understanding of the issues - Kerry 41% Bush 41%
Agreed with you more on the issues you care about - Kerry 46% Bush 49%
Was more believable - Kerry 45% Bush 50%
Was more likable - Kerry 41% Bush 48%
Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job - Kerry 37% Bush 54%

Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=13237

Those are some pretty freakin' scary numbers for a trailing candidate who just gave it his best shot to have to look at. Hell, even Joe Lockhart thinks it was a draw -- as viewers of the C-SPAN debate coverage already know, unbeknownst to Kerry adviser Mike McCurry, a C-SPAN camera quietly followed McCurry as he found Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart on Spin Alley floor and asked him his impression of the debate. Lockhart candidly said to McCurry , ?The consensus is it was a draw.?

This is from Joe Lockhart, not from a conservative partisan. Kerry needed more than a draw in this debate; he needed a knockout. And I believe Lockhart overestimated it. Kerry said a lot of downright stupid things in that debate.

pinky


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Phred]
    #3205443 - 10/02/04 01:35 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Pinkster,

First off, have you watched it yet?

Alright, we agree that the candidates were trying to pick up undecided voters. But, we disagree on whose message was more effective in doing so. Well... let's take a look at the AP poll of undecided voters (yes yes, liberal media blah blah):

Who did a better job in the debate?
43% Kerry, 28% Bush (better ratio for Kerry than with decided voters).

Who do you have a more favorable view of after the debate?
53% Kerry, 22% Bush

I didn't find any more detailed statistics for undecided voters.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/9811551.htm?1c

As far as I'm concerned, that wraps it up. The strong majority of Americans, decided and undecided, believe Kerry won the debate. He won. He crossed the finish line first. Period. (I think my analogy still stands, by the way)

Now, as to your precious issues, I stand by what I said earlier. I don't like the policies of either candidate. I think they both said some very stupid things last night. I think they are both liars. And according to virtually every analysis I've read since last night, they both misled the public in their remarks. Will Kerry's foreign policy work? Probably not. The majority of Americans don't think so. Does that have anything to do with the purpose of last night? Not really. Kerry's comments on foreign policy were in line with what he's said before. Based on that, and how undecided voters felt about Kerry's performance, the idea of his numbers on foreign policy sinking is inconcievable. But we'll wait and see.

And, as stated, I don't believe most undecided voters were watching for the issues. Which is maybe why their numbers were better for Kerry.

You say it's not about winning the debate, it's about winning the election. To quote our president 'I know that *weird head bob, smirk*.' But that doesn't lessen the immense value of the debate. Last night was make or break for Kerry. If he had fucked up, he'd be essentially out of the race. But because he performed well, he's still in it and has new momentum.

As for what Kerry's aids said in private.. Just imagine what words passed through the lips Rove, Bartlett and Hughs when they weren't saying things like 'This was one of the president's best debates, and one of John Kerry's worst,' for the cameras (this elicited shock and laughter from the New York Post reporter, for christ sake).

I'm not arguing who's going to win the election. I'm not arguing whose positions are more logical. I'm not arguing which candidate is better suited to be president. What I'm arguing is that last night was a clear cut victory for Kerry and an utter embarassment for Bush. Particularly among undecided voters.
:cheers:


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Phred]
    #3205585 - 10/02/04 02:39 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

To summarize Kerry's message: "It's the wrong war at the wrong time,


No, this was Bush's message to paint Kerry, after all, he said it OVER AND OVER, among the 5 other soundbites he repeated.

Kerry said Bush went about preperation, planning, and winning the peace wrong.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Phred]
    #3205631 - 10/02/04 02:54 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

The conservative's first desperate attempt at SPINNING the debate: "Bush lost on presentation but won on substance."

When I heard it, I thought, "Wow, you guys just lost BIG."

I couldn't imagine a foreign policy debate going better for Kerry. Bush was supposed to kill Kerry on Foreign Pollicy. After last night, I'm not even sure Bush can say, "Foreign policy."

Last night, Bush looked frustrated. GWB looked like he thought the questions were hard. Bush didn't take criticism from Kerry very well. He was hunched over like Dick Cheney after surgery. He got curt with Kerry, lost his focus... confused Sadam with Bin Laden. Bush looked like a surly midget in side by side comparisons with Kerry. Bush lost his train of thought... uh... ... like ... lots of times.

What was the worst thing that could've happened to Bush?

During the debate Bush was caught red handed misleading the nation into war:

Bush confused Sadam and Bin Laden TWICE. Kerry even called him on it. All Bush could say in deffense was, "I know who Ossama Bin Laden is!" NICE COMEBACK Mr. POTUSHEAD! In a debate, Bush confused the war on terror with the war in Iraq, and he was called on it. I know who Ossama Bin Laden is too Mr. President. Spin that!

What's the second worst thing that could happen to Dubbya?

He could look like an idiot:

Bush asked for a rebuttal. Then when Kerry finished speaking, and the moderator turned to Bush for a response, Bush was like a deer caught in the headlights. Lehr had to remind Bush by saying "Honesty..." then reminding Bush he asked to rebute after Kerry said something about honesty. Bush, still drawing a blank, said something about being a calm guy. WTF? That was a train wreck. Spin that!

Could anything else go wrong?

Kerry could look more Presidential than Bush:

The President was a total slouch. People watch these debates to see who looks most Presidential. Bush looked like he wasn't comfortable in the debate. If Bush can't handle a debate on foreign policy, HOW THE FUCK CAN HE HANDLE A WAR? Spin that!

Kerry won. Kerry won big.

It couldn't have gone much worse for George. Bush usually looks... well... OK in debates. He's not great... but he's usually not THAT bad. He handily beat Gore in at least one debate. He also, without a doubt, defeated Anne Richards in debates.

Why'd Bush suck so bad last night?

Perhaps it has something to do with:

Bush's refusal to admit he fucked up in Iraq. It looked like it was eating him up inside. You watch it in his body. Bush looked uncomfortable because he knew he couldn't answer for this war. He visibly flinched every time Iraq was mentioned. Not very Presidential.

What did he offer the woman who lost her husband in Iraq? Prayer. Bush really thinks God wants him to fight this war in Iraq. HE REALLY DOES. He thinks God is behind him. That's why it is ok for boys to go and die in Iraq while he's at his ranch.

Yes, I know Kerry flip-flops.

Bush belly flopped. He led us into war with the wrong country at the wrong time and, when finally confronted, he couldn't defend himself.

The country don't care about his content! Bush didn't even look like he believed what he was saying. Kerry did. Bush took us to war on accident. Kerry didn't.

This is what America believes after last night's debate.

Sure, as a leader, Sadam sucked ass... but we needed to go after Al Quaeda first and FOREMOST. We let Bin Laden slip away, so we sould look for WMD's in oil country. What kind of message does this send to our country? Our soldiers? The world?

Last night, when confronted with these issues, the USA saw Bush stammering, nervous, agitated, annoyed, impatient, aloof, and very very vertically challenged.

He lost, and he lost bad.

All the conservatives CAN say is he Bush won on substance. Of course they feel that way. They're CONSERVATIVE. They like his substance! Bush fucked up so big, all they can do is SPIN it so he sounds better than he looked. It is like saying "What you saw didn't really happen, but what you heard was the truth."

But, Bush didn't sound so good, not even to his base. And, actions speak louder than words.

If his substance really did win, Bush would have carried himself like a President... instead Bush looked as personable as our VP, Dick Cheney. Don't let your eyes decieve you. Bush lost.

You can tell who is losing the Superbowl just by looking at the body language of the players. This debate was no different.

I'd love to play poker with Dubbya. A little Texas hold 'em with the Prez. I'd clean up!

Kerry won 'cause he looked like the President last night.

Bush lost because he looked like he's squandered his presidency.

Edit: I started editing this post, and ended up adding a lot more than I expected.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (10/02/04 04:32 AM)


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Rose]
    #3205666 - 10/02/04 03:11 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

:thumbup:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Rose]
    #3205668 - 10/02/04 03:12 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

I don't know what debate you people were listening to but I sure didn't hear Kerry take an issue on anything other than "I'm better than George Bush".

O, he said he wouldn't cut our taxes.
You know, I REALLY do not feel that wages are fair in this country, but I'll be goddamned -- the government shouldn't be the one to even things out. fuck some taxes. in the ear.

He also made ridiculous claims like making diplomatic appeals as solutions to problems, until there is no alternative.

If you're diplomatic enough, THE DIPLOMATIC DISCUSSIONS NEVER END. SEE VIETNAM.

He ALSO made derogatory comments about the contributions of allies in the War on Terror, which is egocentric and an all-around elitist jackass move to do.
Yes the majority of the forces and expenduratures in the war in Iraq are American. Do you expect fuckin Japan to have a huge Army? The entire EU's military is smaller than the American military, what the hell are these people supposed to send? They send what they can, sometimes a larger proportion than WE send even though it's numerically far far less, but it's more a show of support and a willingness to do what they can to help. You don't look down on that. What a jackass.
While he was putting down those other countries he was also talking about building a stronger coalition. By berating countries with smaller militaries?
Good job, John. Way to handle yourself.

Kerry didn't win. Kerry just said the same substanceless bullshit he's been spouting all along.

John Kerry is still just the doofus who claims he crawls on his stomach through the woods to hunt deer.
And what I mean by that is a ritzy dipshit who'll try and say whatever he thinks you want to hear, but is too removed from the real world to pull it off -- Clinton, unfortunately in my mind, could pull that sort of thing off. Kerry's the coddled, retarded cousin of Clinton. He's not as bright, he's not someone who can identify with the majority of America, he's just got three purple hearts and a long face. Meh.


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: Rose]
    #3205672 - 10/02/04 03:14 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

From the very beginning of the debate the Chimp's body language was HORRIBLE. In his first answer, he reverted to his terrible habit of looking down, scrunching his shoulders slightly, turning up a corner of his mouth, and shaking his head back and forth. This gives the impression of a person who does not understand something and has given up trying to do so. He did this about a thousand times during his disastrous interview with Tim Russert. It's inconceivable that his handlers sent him out there last night to do it all over again.

During every answer by Kerry, Bush acted like everything from a spoiled, petulant child to a whipped loser. He would purse his lips, raise his eyebrows and his eyes would bug out. By the ten minute mark he looked like he would go to pieces. By the twenty-four minute mark I didn't think there was any way he could make it through the full ninety minutes. I actually was wondering what the procedure would be to stop the debate. It was downright embarrassing for the poor Chimp. But during the second half of the debate the pace slowed down considerably, and it seemed to allow Bush time to hold himself together.

There may have been a problem with the Pretzeldent's meds last night -- he seemed to swing wildly from wired up and angry to near comatose. His ass-kissers will need to experiment further with this to find the proper dosage for a 90-minute debate.

I think what last night's debate really exposed was how the insulation that Bush's handlers impose upon him has worked to his detriment. When he isn't propped up in front of a crowd of sycophantic yes-men who signed loyalty oaths, he can't find the vibe. He seemed to pause and wait for applause when he trotted out the tired old cliches that bring booming ovations from his rabid supporters, but when his simple-minded buzzwords like "hard work" (which he said about a dozen times) and that "stay the course, steadfast, liberty, blah, blah" didn't set off thunderous applause, he completely lost his way and it showed.

Bush is obviously used to delivering canned speeches that he doesn't understand in front of people too dim to care. The audiences at every speech I've seen are rabidly pro-Bush, so he never has to think on his feet or face any sort of criticism. If you have seen any of the EXTREMELY limited number of press conferences Bush has held, you probably weren't surprised by his complete inability to articulate anything other than what he has memorized and been coached to say.

But my favorite part was watching the fucking dimwit chug the vodka like it was water. He drank so goddamn much I thought at any point he was gonna flat-out piss his pants or pass out. It was even funnier when his glass was empty and he picked the damn thing up three more times, just like a drunk does in a bar when the bartender has taken too long to bring the lush another round.


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #3205698 - 10/02/04 03:29 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

But my favorite part was watching the fucking dimwit chug the vodka like it was water. He drank so goddamn much I thought at any point he was gonna flat-out piss his pants or pass out. It was even funnier when his glass was empty and he picked the damn thing up three more times, just like a drunk does in a bar when the bartender has taken too long to bring the lush another round.

:jamming:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineWorf
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #3205825 - 10/02/04 04:27 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

I don't think it could be said better. Honestly, I don't.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3205969 - 10/02/04 07:06 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

yeah the sad thing is that bush didn't win on any count - presentation, issues, maybe he picked up some sympathy votes (he sure had my sympathy). but he certainly did not win that debate by any standard. you'd have to be completely out of touch with reality to think that he won.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: If you use the rhetoric "Bush lost on presentation... [Re: SpecialEd]
    #3205996 - 10/02/04 08:01 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

"Bush lost on presentation but won on ideas"




No one who doesn't like Bush is saying that.







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Mp3 of the month: Johnny Price- Marijuana, The Devil Flower



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