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Offlinemm.
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Jesus was cool really (evidence)
    #318758 - 05/16/01 07:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The Gospel of Thomas was not included in the bible but is a list of quotes of Jesus. It seems he was preaching some AlfredN.Whitehad/Mckenna/Transcendence/Unity stuff and Christains seem to get quite upset when you mention it



Edited by mm. on 05/16/01 07:43 PM.



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Offlinehubertd8
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #318766 - 05/16/01 07:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

did you watch Stigmata ?



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Offlinemm.
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: hubertd8]
    #318779 - 05/16/01 08:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

no i heard it was rubbish.



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InvisibleClark
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #318858 - 05/16/01 09:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I agree that the Jesus of the GoT is pretty cool. He almost has a Jimi Hendrix or Jerry Garcia kind of hippie-sage type thing going on. But isn't it still up in the air as to whether the GoT is older and more "authentic" (as far as revealing what Jesus actually preached) than the canonical gospels are, or whether it's just another 2nd or 3rd generation-removed forgery with some famous guy's name to lend it credibility (as was common practice in the ancient world... i.e. the gospel of Mary M., famed biblical strumpet).

In other words, can we really believe that the GoT is representative of the Savior-on-a-Stick's teachings any more than any of the Nicene-conspiracy-approved stuff we had to shlog through in Sunday School?




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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: Clark]
    #318868 - 05/16/01 10:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

the consensus is that it was written in the 2nd centuary BC, around the same time as the rest of the new testament and probably a bit before - check the FAQ



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Offlinehubertd8
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #319560 - 05/17/01 07:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

actually its very good you should see it, it deals with the GofT and is pretty much centered around the church trying to surpress it.





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InvisibleJenny
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #319744 - 05/18/01 12:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I never doubted jesus was once a cool guy, but to me, nothing more than a wise man. The bible i'll have to go against though, it wasn't written by jesus, but by others saying whats "right" and "wrong" based solely on their interpretations, so therefore i'm against all stupid christian religions whose lives revolve around this "sacred" book and take every word in the bible literally, but i think Jesus himself presented brilliant ideas and views on how to make our society work together, and for that, i commend him. Hey, at least he tried.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #320827 - 05/19/01 12:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"...[W]e have seen that this Gospel is attested at the beginning of the third century; this means that it belongs to at least the end of the second century...but this takes us back to a time when the New Testament writings had not yet completely replaced the living tradition...Eminent scholars have already begun the work of trying to discern how much of these sayings really goes back to a tradition which the canonical gospels ignored, and which may therefore correspond more or less exactly to teachings of Christ which would otherwise have been forgotten.... Finally, as concerns the actual substance of the teaching given here, the reader must of course remember that it is not a 'fifth' gospel...it is, as it stands, only an apocryphal work to which no real authority can be attributed, and even its very composition is artificial. But bearing this in mind, it is still possible to read this collection and in doing so be brought into direct and moving contact with a very ancient form of Christianity. It was a form of Christianity which was profoundly influenced by Hellenic philosophy and exceptionally subtle in its conceptions; but at the same time it was extremely demanding in its ideals and in some ways strangely anticipated the finest flights of mysticism of the Latin Middle Ages." -p. 352-353, 'The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics' by Jean Doresse

The tradition of Jesus as Wisdom Teacher is a vein that runs peripherally to the heart of 'Christ crucified,' the central doctrinal theme of Pauline Christianity. The consequences of that choice was to develop the notions of vicarious sacrifice - Jesus died for our sins; we are washed in the blood of the Lamb - all of which derives from the earlier Jewish sacrificial practices and the later identification of Christ with the paschal (Passover) lamb. For most people, especially Gentiles with little or no exposure to or identification with the Jewishness of Jesus, the Hellenistic writings are very interesting. They are also interesting to those who identify salvation or enlightenment as conditions of human beings, rather than as a condition of a tribe, as salvation was for the Hebrews. Salvation was for Israel, and there is little in the Old Testament to describe Eternal Life except for the few people like Enoch, Elijah or Moses who were raised to mythological status (as was Jesus later on), and received bodily into God. Growth in spirituality, in enlightenment, is called sanctification in Christianity. Everyone who believes that Jesus is Christ or Messiah, is saved, that is, 'justified,' equally, but there are different degrees of sanctification. Mystics are further along in sanctification, and everyday Christians do not wish to hear of others (particularly younger others) who may be further along spiritually than they are.




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OfflineChonger
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #321008 - 05/19/01 05:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'd like to hang out with jesus one day

Its in your heart, its in your art, your beauty.
Even in this world of lies, theres purity.


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OfflineJdub1
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Jesus [Re: Chonger]
    #15922045 - 03/08/12 11:10 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus is lord


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Re: Jesus [Re: Jdub1]
    #15922623 - 03/09/12 01:37 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jdub1 said:
Jesus is lord




And on the third day, he rose again. He gathered round his disciples and spoke to them concerning a vision. My friends, in my absence, have you forgotten the words I've spoke to you... stop fucking necroposting. Except Lot, Lot can necropost. But all ye others, cut that shit out.


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Offlinehidenseek
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Re: Jesus [Re: Jdub1]
    #15925392 - 03/09/12 06:13 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Jdub1 said:
Jesus is lord





no shit Sherlock


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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: mm.]
    #15926268 - 03/09/12 09:29 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mm. said:
The <a target="_blank" href=http://www.miseri.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm>Gospel of Thomas</a> was not included in the bible but is a list of quotes of Jesus. It seems he was preaching some AlfredN.Whitehad/Mckenna/Transcendence/Unity stuff and Christains seem to get quite upset when you mention it
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by mm. on 05/16/01 07:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>





How is that evidence of your claim?

Jesus claimed that if you did not believe in him, follow him, you would be tortured forever- by his own will.

Jesus said repeatedly to cast off your possesions, collect no wealth, to do nothing but follow him.  He further said that if you did not do this, you would be tortured in the hell he brought to the world.

Jesus cast everyone before him (with few exceptions) and everyone who hadn't heard of his preachings in the illiterate areas he frequented, to an eternity of hellfire for nothing other than the offense of being born.  How inthe world is that a "cool guy"?

I think you, and a lot of other people, are basing your views on the selective and apologist views of Jesus offered by the modern Christian evangelists- those who tend to gloss over the parts where he says he "came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword".


(not that I expect the original poster to respond, but its worth pointing this out, as many people here seem to suggest similar views- even those who find christianity in general to be repugnant)


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OfflineCactilove
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: johnm214]
    #15926400 - 03/09/12 09:54 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I have not heard any of this. Which book was this in, and to bring the point above to attention this book was obviously not wrote  by Jesus. it was written by people who had there own bias. But never the less I would like to see this for myself.


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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: Cactilove]
    #15927119 - 03/10/12 12:27 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
I have not heard any of this. Which book was this in, and to bring the point above to attention this book was obviously not wrote  by Jesus. it was written by people who had there own bias. But never the less I would like to see this for myself.





What I've said above is all pretty central to Christian theology, though like I said, the modern churches tend to play up the peace and love bit to avoid sounding immoral and repugnant. 

It's worth noting that in the old testament there is no mention of hell.  Jesus is the one who preaches about it, and it is he who promises those who don't believe will burn forever in agony.

In order, my claims in the above:
  • I.  Jesus is the only way to be saved, being a good person is not enough

    "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24 (Jesus speaking)

    "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    Acts 4:12

    "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. "
    Romans 11:5

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
    Eph 2:8,9


  • II.  Jesus controls heaven/hell admittance and could save whoever he wanted, but doesn't

    "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
    Rev 1:18
    (Jesus speaking)

  • III.  Jesus said not to care about possessions and not to plan ahead, take care for tomorrow (because the rapture is coming.... any day now!)

    "As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?... Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
    Mark 10:17 et seq (Jesus speaking)

    "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
    Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
    Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. "
    Luke 6:22 et seq (Jesus speaking)


  • IV.  Hell sucks, Those who didn't call for Jesus are screwed (see above):

    "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
    Matthew 13:42 (Jesus speaking)

    "In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
    “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. "
    Luke 16:22


  • V.  Those in Hell (for not believing in Jesus) are there forever

    "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here [heaven] to you [hell]cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there [hell] to us [heaven]."
    Luke 16:26 (Abraham is talking here)




All the above paints a rather different picture of Jesus's teachings than that popularly promoted by the churches.  Its plain: don't build schools or hospitals, don't be thrifty and save food for the bad times, throw everything away- for the rapture is coming.  Also, everyone goes to hell except those who are saved, and you can only be saved through believing Jesus.


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Offlinethefloodbehind
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: johnm214]
    #15927203 - 03/10/12 12:42 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
I have not heard any of this. Which book was this in, and to bring the point above to attention this book was obviously not wrote  by Jesus. it was written by people who had there own bias. But never the less I would like to see this for myself.





What I've said above is all pretty central to Christian theology, though like I said, the modern churches tend to play up the peace and love bit to avoid sounding immoral and repugnant. 

It's worth noting that in the old testament there is no mention of hell.  Jesus is the one who preaches about it, and it is he who promises those who don't believe will burn forever in agony.

In order, my claims in the above:
  • I.  Jesus is the only way to be saved, being a good person is not enough

    "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” John 5:24 (Jesus speaking)

    "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
    Acts 4:12

    "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. "
    Romans 11:5

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
    Eph 2:8,9


  • II.  Jesus controls heaven/hell admittance and could save whoever he wanted, but doesn't

    "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
    Rev 1:18
    (Jesus speaking)

  • III.  Jesus said not to care about possessions and not to plan ahead, take care for tomorrow (because the rapture is coming.... any day now!)

    "As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?... Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
    Mark 10:17 et seq (Jesus speaking)

    "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
    Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
    Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. "
    Luke 6:22 et seq (Jesus speaking)


  • IV.  Hell sucks, Those who didn't call for Jesus are screwed (see above):

    "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
    Matthew 13:42 (Jesus speaking)

    "In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
    “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. "
    Luke 16:22


  • V.  Those in Hell (for not believing in Jesus) are there forever

    "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here [heaven] to you [hell]cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there [hell] to us [heaven]."
    Luke 16:26 (Abraham is talking here)




All the above paints a rather different picture of Jesus's teachings than that popularly promoted by the churches.  Its plain: don't build schools or hospitals, don't be thrifty and save food for the bad times, throw everything away- for the rapture is coming.  Also, everyone goes to hell except those who are saved, and you can only be saved through believing Jesus.




Pretty sure you've grossly misinterpreted the Bible. In my understanding, Jesus "brought a sword" so as to reform his native religion and to liberate his followers from religious dogma, e.g., Mosaic law.


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: thefloodbehind]
    #15927302 - 03/10/12 01:02 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Either way, his point is taken, that "cool" is not the most suitable descriptive word for Jesus. Quite literally, Jesus was God walking in the flesh, breathing forth rebukes and making people clean, as he said, "I must be about my father's business", "I do what I see my father doing", and "I tell you what I hear from my father". Many people (then and now) do not know God, so they don't understand his words when they hear them, nor did they recognize him when they'd seen him.


Edited by 10thousand (03/10/12 01:27 AM)


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Offlinethefloodbehind
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: 10thousand]
    #15927341 - 03/10/12 01:11 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

10thousand said:
Either way, his point is taken, that "cool" is not the most suitable descriptive word for Jesus. Quite literally, Jesus was God walking in the flesh, breathing forth rebukes and making people clean, as he said, "I must be about my father's business", "I do what I see my father doing", and "I tell you what I hear from my father". Many people (then and now) do not know God, so they don't understand his words when they hear them, nor did they recognize him when they'd seen him.




I see. Indeed, I personally find "awesome" to be a much better descriptor. He was also really, really smart. I think all humans are divine, in some respect; to me, however, Jesus was far and away the most spiritually evolved person to ever walk the planet.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: thefloodbehind]
    #15927362 - 03/10/12 01:14 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thefloodbehind said:


Pretty sure you've grossly misinterpreted the Bible. In my understanding, Jesus "brought a sword" so as to reform his native religion and to liberate his followers from religious dogma, e.g., Mosaic law.





What is that based upon? What have I misinterpreted?  I included the actual quotations from the scripture itself, and yet you don't cite anything in support of your claim.

It seems pretty ridiculous to suggest he came to liberate people from religious dogma, let alone "his followers".  Jesus didn't have any followers before he came- there were just a bunch of jews and some prophecy.  (I guess you could say he did, being god, but most of the bible seems pretty polytheistic, despite Jesus claiming to kinda-sorta be god).

How is what Jesus taught any less dogmatic than anything previous?  I presume your aware of the quote where he says he comes not to repeal the law but to fulfill it- what's that about if his mission was to crush the dogma?


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Offlinethefloodbehind
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Re: Jesus was cool really (evidence) [Re: johnm214]
    #15927448 - 03/10/12 01:29 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

thefloodbehind said:


Pretty sure you've grossly misinterpreted the Bible. In my understanding, Jesus "brought a sword" so as to reform his native religion and to liberate his followers from religious dogma, e.g., Mosaic law.





What is that based upon? What have I misinterpreted?  I included the actual quotations from the scripture itself, and yet you don't cite anything in support of your claim.

It seems pretty ridiculous to suggest he came to liberate people from religious dogma, let alone "his followers".  Jesus didn't have any followers before he came- there were just a bunch of jews and some prophecy.  (I guess you could say he did, being god, but most of the bible seems pretty polytheistic, despite Jesus claiming to kinda-sorta be god).

How is what Jesus taught any less dogmatic than anything previous?  I presume your aware of the quote where he says he comes not to repeal the law but to fulfill it- what's that about if his mission was to crush the dogma?




It's based upon instances in the Bible where Jesus' teachings run against the previously accepted Hebrew scriptures, e.g., throughout Matthew 5 and elsewhere.

As far as Jesus coming "not to repeal the law but to fulfill it," I think he meant that he was not trying to do away entirely with the moral code of the Old Testament, but rather sought to make it what it should have been all along. The Ten Commandments, for example, are pretty solid, but when we have this kind of biblical contradiction, ...

“So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” – John 4:16 (NT)

“The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name.” - Exodus 15:3 (OT)

... we understand that what Jesus taught was probably not what Jews were used to hearing.

The Apocryphon of John has some more ideas running in this vein, e.g., the rejection of the "jealous God" we hear about in the OT in favor of a more impersonal "One."


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