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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Cyber]
    #3275932 - 10/25/04 03:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

fluke?


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OfflinekLaWsRauGHt
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3278367 - 10/26/04 05:13 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

somebody has an obsession with terrance mckenna.. :P


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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: kLaWsRauGHt]
    #3278437 - 10/26/04 06:19 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

who me? never read or heard any mckenna stuff


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OfflineTag_Number
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3278523 - 10/26/04 07:40 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Tag_Number]
    #3278809 - 10/26/04 09:36 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Some interesting discussion in this thread.

I'm not sure how psiloc(yb)in came to be created in these mushrooms - An equisite and calculated act of The Creator set to look like an evolutionary by-product to a scientific culture that cannot see past its own brand of rationalism which is built on a bed of irrational supposition? Or vice versa...either way has a hint of the cosmic giggle about it...

At any rate the mushrooms began to produce this chemical. This makes me begin to wonder what kind of consciousness these organisms experience. We all know what psiloc(yb)in does to human consciousness - does it put the mushrooms permanently into this exalted sphere of consciousnes? Is their 'soul'/psychic energy one of the greater species in the 'spirit world'/imagination? Are they permanantly tapped in with something far greater than an earthly mushroom/mycelium body consciously existing on the other side of what to us is a veil, but to them is perhaps more like a window without glass?

Have they exceeded the consciousness of most beings in the planetary ecology and now they help to bring us forward into (existance with) this super-consciousness? (There are of course other organisms that contin high levels of consciousness expanding substances, but none so approachable, accessible or assimilable as the mushroom).

Perhaps, but perhaps not, it may be that psiloc(yb)in does not have the same effect on them at all. Perhaps they contain an 'antidote' and live in a droll consciousness; but if so wouldn't that 'antidote' nullify the psiloc(yb)in effects on us when we eat the mushroom? Maybe not since our metabolism works differently.....

At any rate it seems to me from the conversations I have had with fungi that they do have a 'body' in these realms - or at least they have a connection to an entity of amazing power and intent (along with a whole universe of metaphysical life). This same entity that we can connect with when we eat the shrooms, this same galaxy of lifeforms and intelligence.

I personally believe the mushroom is hunting out a symbiosis, and we have become the prime target. It is an excellent deal. We want their exalted consciousnes, they want our hands and tool building skills - and both of us want to have fun, adventure, and loads of laughs.

This is by no means unusual, symbiosis is an extremely common and essential part of the evolutionary process, one classic example is the symbiosis of mitochondria with the cell, a symbiosis that went so far the two beings became one - the basis of all animal life.

Sure the mushroom can spread its spores via the wind - but can it grow in an Alaskan Winter, or in a New York Summer? Not until the humans formed a friendship with it. And when we look back through the chapters of evolution we see that there has ben a symbiosis attempt before. And back in those archaic times some factor brought the proto-hominids evolution along at a previously unknown rate. The strongest  candidate for this hyper-jump in evolution to our current neo-cortexed form is - the mushroom.

Now as a species we are ready to go further, along with the re-awakening of the spirit that has been occuring in the Western psyche since the mid 1950's and spurred on by none other than a host of psychedellic compounds, the mushroom has slipped back into our lives.

Just this year a fresh stanza in the bio-cosmic symphony has begun with the first commercial spaceflight. The dawn of the space age proper has arrived, a glow is on the horizon.

This means redefining ourselves and our survival perameters - something many of the knots in human consciousnes cannot cope with.

We have been given very pointed individual consciousness by our current form (and those immediately preceeding in the evolutionary map). The psychedellics (with psilocybin as their best agent) re-integrate this with a much broader consciousness. One might call this 'the spirit' (for want of a better metaphor).

Many (generations of) humans have concentrated on their knot of consciousness so hard and for so long they have created a kind of super granny-knot that they refuse to untie. These people have formed a barrier to the inflow of evolution and in effect fight the spirit since they percieve it as threatening and its enmeshing in their being as a loss beyond all measure.

These are the desperate perpetrators of profane history. Those who seek eternal division and trumpet self-righteous claptrap mono-ideologies.

And so we as a species reach a paradox of our nature.

This is the challenge of life - the negative and the positive are forever entertwined in this way, and one always rises to meet the other. The race is on - but only Love is unthreatened...

Soon we will ascend into the imagination above and below and around - The awesome broadening of our experience in/of both the material universe and the psychic universe.

This whole thing of tripping, of being a space cadet is what it says it is. It is preparing us to leave the planet. This must be imminent, and it's freakin humanity out......we have reached the planetary envelope. It's gonna get fuckin trippy out there, and the experience will change everything.

The shroom wants our hands....we want its consciousness - where shall we go with our symbiosis?

Their consciousness available to us opens a whole different universe up to us psychically, and acts as an undeniable realm of evolutionary catalysis for this 'material' universe.

Humanity's hands offer unrivalled potential for increases in shroom propagation rates and the speed of distribution through the galaxy (which is surely imminent). In order to do this we need to take the entire biosphere and actually re-invent it over and over to fit new challenges. Our little super-conscious friend inspiring and delighting in the variety and novelty all the way.

Like the shroom - Our future can grow underground for an age, gaining size, connections and strength, and then fruit in a blink - keep your eyes peeled!

One

:mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow::mushroomgrow:

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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Tag_Number]
    #3279101 - 10/26/04 11:15 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for the link but it would take an age to download just one of those wit my shitty connection speed

(edit)  But thats irrelevant!!!  Those opinions I gave were purely my own an were not influenced by mckenna or any other reading!

:smirk:

(2nd edit) Great post CJay


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Edited by MovingTarget (10/26/04 11:22 AM)

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Invisiblemrnobody998877
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3280253 - 10/26/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

sorry, iam a student of biology / biochemie,
and have to give wy thinkings about that

i think there is one point forgotten here :
  EVOLUTION works through Mutation & Determination,
this means, the WHY (-IT-DEVELOPED) is to search in genetical mutation and not in a human way of sense.... The WHY is for every new chemical compound in (Cell-)Evolution the same : MUTATION of the DNA/RNA (ok different ways to go there as Chemicals, UVLight,...)

so we have to see it was DEVELOPED, no deeper WHY....Ask your Chem. oder Genetics-Professor /-Teacher about it the WHY....  :smile:

Why i think this is important to say ?
At first it looks the same if we say "the giraffe has become a long neck to eat higher fruits" or "the long neck helped the giraffe to eat higher fruits and like this survive in an new biologic clima";
But there is a difference, cause
a) the long neck can also help with other things...
b) if the higher fruits would no longer exist, maybe the neck would go shorter in some long time (or short ?) but maybe stay like this, cause it has another good thing in it which helps in the new environment; maybe it would never grow shorter cause this mutation would never happen or its only happens together with mutations which would make the animal die before being ready to make children; maybe the animal would be eaten by others or die cause of bacteria,.....

so the question to ask is : HOW did a certain Mutation help the specie to survive or even survive better than others species or maybe find a new way to synthesyse Aminoacids, .....

And there are DIFFERENT answers, and many of them are true

* it might be there was a species of animal oder mikroorganisem which was defeated with this compound or still is....

* or that this something helps the mushroom to live on (through spores)

* ...

and of course nowerdays we play a big role in this, the domestication of cattle and today the done research (cause of this compound) helps the fungi to grow on and on; so things maybe changing from time to time....

WHY do we have an Appendix ?
---> Mutation of DNA
HOW did it help the species ?
---> it helps some vertebrates to make a millieu in which some microorganismen can make suger out of cellulose

but today we still have it !
the mutations in the DNA does not make the same things back that before came in (mostly)....So we have a litte appendix and not no appendix, but we dont need an appendix, in fact it makes a lot of people ill, but Evolution does not work like "ah it needs this and that we can give away and so on"

i knew most people know that fact, but it is important to see all time and not ask question like "if the sense was to take the spores with the shit cause some animals love tripping (a lot of animals LIKE alkohol some times !!!!) why does the woodlovers also have that compound ?"
cause there is NO SENSE in Evolution, its all some energy which forms atoms, molecules and out of this come cells, but they only follow the rules of energy in the atoms; i believe today we dont know every sphere of beeing but seems like we more and more understand some very basic facts and from there we have to go, please dont begin to argue with me about the sense in objectiv way, cause "sense" is something humankind has made and is very subjectiv !!!!!!!

So : Do you know if the development of psylocibin is a convergently evolution ?
it is really rare in the world, that such organical compounds develop convergently...
so i think the "mother" of all psylocibin-species has had this mutation....
maybe iam wrong wih this cause dont know so much of evolution of basidomycetes, but seems logically to me...
and the mushy cannot think "a okay now i eat wood, abnd i dont need this fuckin psilocybin anymore"

all in all its an very interestin question, but you can only find out for what it is helping / or helped an maybe some genetical history of it, but cannot say "this is the why of psilobybin"
"WHY do we have 2 and not 3 eyes ?" :wink: (yeah i know : god made adam like himself and god has 2 eyes and blablabla....nice storytellers but taking medicine which was made by people just "knowing nothing real about the world" :smile: )

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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: mrnobody998877]
    #3282240 - 10/26/04 11:06 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

would the psilocybin not cause soem sort of stomach upset in anumals that eat them thereby allowing it to pass quicker throuh the gut of animals and hence allowing for a higher spore survival rate. i know nothing of the stomach chemistry of cows etc.

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InvisibleMovingTarget

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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: kbilly]
    #3282252 - 10/26/04 11:09 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

did i mention earlier that rabbits can eat destroying angels with no ill effect?

maybe thats diferent from how the spores may effect their stomachs though...


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3285528 - 10/27/04 04:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Why did mushrooms develop the capacity to produce psiloc(yb)in?

For a similar reason our brains produce dmt? Somehow consciousness related?
Maybe a by-product of it's metabolism by chance? Maybe not?

What is the evolutionary benefit of expending energy to produce these alkaloids?

If it does lead to a kind of 'above average mushroom intellengence' , expanded consciousness must be an evolutionary advantage - imagine the possibilities.


Why is alkaloid content high in pins, yet production slows dramatically when the cap opens?  

If so, perhaps because the individual mushroom passes the zenith of its youth?

Is it a defense mechanism to keep animals from devouring them until they can drop their spores?

Personally I doubt it. Some guy just posted about his dog munching some down in the Domenican Republic - dunno if it had a good time or not tho. Maybe I'll ask.



WHY do we have an Appendix ?
---> Mutation of DNA
HOW did it help the species ?
---> it helps some vertebrates to make a millieu in which some microorganismen can make suger out of cellulose

but today we still have it !
the mutations in the DNA does not make the same things back that before came in (mostly)....So we have a litte appendix and not no appendix, but we dont need an appendix, in fact it makes a lot of people ill, but Evolution does not work like "ah it needs this and that we can give away and so on"




Yes time leaves its relics, evolution leaves its relics. The new is built upon the old and the species memory, or habit of form as it were, persists for some time. As you mentioned - the species memory fades through non-unse, and perhaps that is why our useless apendix is so shrunken (relative to body size) when compared to the same function organs in species that use theirs every day.

I feel it is unlikely that psiloc(yb)in is a genetic relic, of actual endogenic use to the mushroom only in some far distant past. The main reasons being that it holds the possibility of some kindo of access to a kind of intergalactic consciousness which sings a song that is Life flowing. Who knows how the shroom experiences that...

In our species the psiloc(yb)in has to pass the blood brain barrier to have an effect, but this is the main seat of our conscious experience and where we have receptors for the psiloc(yb)in to fit into. I'm not sure how or where the it fits some kind of receptor in the mushroom. Surely there must be one, if it is a by-product from some lost age then there must have been a receptor one would think. If psiloc(yb)in became some useless repeated genetic sentance, would the receptor disappear? Could such a substance become useless to species?


No one really knows the answers to any of this, but there's a few guesses for you. Perhaps it is of some perameter we humans cannot even really conceive of. :clown:

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Offlinenubby
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: CJay]
    #3285711 - 10/27/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

i think mrnobody had a lot of good points. you just have to look past his weird spellings.

the active alkaloids DID NOT evolve to mess with humans. no way. not at all. we're just way too new on the evolutionary scene. alkaloid-producing fungus have been around for billions of years, but modern humans only showed up in the last half million years. you might be able to argue or find evidence that the alkaloids are intended to be a poision or deterrent to hungry animals, but not one aimed solely at humans. co-evolution requires very unique circumstances. mushrooms can definately survive without humans, and humans without mushrooms.

the alkaloids could be waste products, signal molucules, metabolic byproducts, or catalysts for other reactions in the life of the mycellium. according to my good friend, who studies fungus, there is actually active debate and confusion among research mycologists currently as to why fungi make such alkaloids. however, similar molecules are found in many other species of fungii.

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InvisibleAntiMeme
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: nubby]
    #3286147 - 10/27/04 06:46 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting thread. I recently stumbled uopn a usenet thread from the bionet.mycology group where some biologists discuss the very same thing:

Biological function of hallucinogens in fungi?


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InvisibleColonel Kurtz Ph.D
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: nubby]
    #3286466 - 10/27/04 07:52 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What an interesting read. I think everything I have to say have been said, but it was amazing nonetheless.
Maybe I should point out that as an attractor to humans there's an amazing parallelism in Cannabis and it's psychoactive compound, THC (and also in many other species, such as caffeine and coffee, tobacco... etc). I think there's an obvious symbiosis here, as one species benefits the other, but this has been pointed out before. Just a thought.


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:whatwhat:

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Invisiblemrnobody998877
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #3288936 - 10/28/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

> Why did mushrooms develop the capacity to produce psiloc(yb)in?
--->answer is everytime the same : cause of Mutation.... :smile:

searching for a sense or asking the question like this will lead you very easy to a "false" answer; cause the why is always Mutation....
you just can ask, why it helped surviving, or is still in the genetics,....

i know it looks like a little bit too much looking on the words, but in genetics & evolution it is very important to ask the right question to come to a conclusion which fits the real world....

>Why is alkaloid content high in pins, yet production slows >dramatically when the cap opens?
does anyone out here really know if this is true ?
i always hear about that but never seen an table from a laboratory or something like this which can really say this.....
i think mosten this is experienced cause people dont dry there fungus correctly but little pins are very easy to get cracker dry and also not loosing much alkaloides while drying.....
i dont know, but just have never seen a real scientific research.....


>i think mrnobody had a lot of good points. you just have to look past >his weird spellings.
yeah thanks....i am really bad in english i know....so i have to use some words i know to say things that are a little bit complicated...
:smile:

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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: CJay]
    #3290245 - 10/28/04 04:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

the reason humans still have an appendix is that modern humans have slowed evolution in many areas with advances in medicine: without intervention, deaths from appendicitis would slowly but shirley lead to a benefit from a smaller and eventually absent appendix. that's my guess, anyway. similarly, glasses are witholding human visual evolution - all the ones with really bad eyesight would have been eaten long ago, but these days the bad eye genes are kept in the gene pool.

that psilocybin makes humans trip may be a freak coincidence, just a molecule that fits into another molecule. or psilocybin may be a natural growth hormone (auxin), an animal deterrant toxin, an inconsequential waste product, or even a cellular messenger that represents an advance in communication.

:smile: this thread is awesome, let's keep it going  :smile: i've seen no evidence so far that psilocybin offers any evolutionary advantages or disadvantages to the host species - is there any?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: shirley knott]
    #3290805 - 10/28/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

modern humans have slowed evolution in many areas with advances in medicine

I would say that is in part true. The other part is the fact that the past is built upon and remains for some lag as a species evolves. For example our brains which contain the structures of the reptillian R-Complex, the mammalian limbic system, and our own lucky special addition the neo cortex.

Like building a city maybe, the past remains, perhaps to sooner or later be completely redeveloped in the complete revision/transformation of a species.

> Why did mushrooms develop the capacity to produce psiloc(yb)in--->answer is everytime the same : cause of Mutation....?

Mutation may have been the causing agent, but that is the same for every feature of the biosphere we see around us, every nuance and every broad stroke of Life. What determines whether a mutation remains is whether it is successful in Life.

For some reason this must have been of benefit, or of no consequence. If of benefit then who can guess at what benefit to the host organism....perhaps my musings on the mushroom's consciousness go to far, maybe I am naieve, and completely wrong...who knows...but something is definitely going on.

Perhaps by the equations of darwin based theories of evolution this looks like something not deliberately targetted at humans - that would make sense. I believe it so when taking a kind of very rational point of view within me.

On the other hand...

What I percieve is the possible confluence of 2 energies that apparently coincidentally have come together. Some kind of intelligence reaching through the billions of years of apparently random mellieu (or at least some balance) has likely guided this from behind the scenes.

Now this may be a crazy fantasy....I don't know either way.  :sun:

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Invisiblebluebass
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: CJay]
    #3291021 - 10/28/04 07:13 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I think psilocybin can be a deterent,and a way to propigate itself [ininvertintely]. we are here discussing cultivation of these specific mushrooms.People cultivate these psilocybin producing mushrooms.The spores for these mushrooms are all over the planet,but so are culinary mushrooms.Maybe something [a animal]would eat one trip and be like never again.I wonder if there are more culinary mushrooms cultivated or psilocybin mushrooms cultivated?[don't mean to get off of topic]Maybe it is a bi-product of metabolism.maybe they are just there for our use.

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Invisiblemrnobody998877
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: bluebass]
    #3292687 - 10/29/04 04:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

>...Some kind of
>intelligence reaching through the billions of years of apparently >random mellieu (or at least some balance) has likely guided this from >behind the scenes.

if you say guided it all looks a little bit like god was in the play or any other higher intelligence....
so i like to look very scientific at nature.
but this dont mean i think we know more than 0.0001% of what is happening !

so i always have this feeling too, something is reaching out for us,
but does someone here really unterstand Quantum-Mechanics ?
Because they say, like some "enlightned" said the last 1000s of years, that time & space are Illusion, or lets say time & space like we see it is an Illusion...
The past, the future & the now are NOW and on ONE POINT, no space....

So this means a lot of things can be possible which we even cannot imagine - maybe this a kind of future or THE ONE (i mean the world in its "real" beiing - no space & time) is reaching out for us....

so this is were science comes into the game, cause the only way to really know is to make a hyptothese an then to proof; everything else (even if true !) is believing !

and i believe (! :smile: ) this is a very nice theme for research, hopefully the scientific research in psychedelica will start again in some years, there are so many questions to answer......
Till then we have to do our own Hobby-research......

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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: mrnobody998877]
    #3308011 - 11/02/04 05:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

:smile:

Science is great and has benefitted humans tremendously - but it is built on 2 huge leaps of faith:

1.The laws of the universe are the only permanent things and extend infinitely in all directions.

2. Despite science's claim of rationality the entire model of the universe is built upon the big bang theory. If you can believe this then to my mind you can believe anything. The universe sprung from an unimaginable nothing in an instant for absolutely no reason and with no impetus. Talk about pulling a rabbit from a hat!

Perhaps in fact the laws of physics actually changed, perhaps they do change. Perhaps nothing is permanent.

I can't help the kid in me which asks 'why?' and at every answer asks again 'why?' - eventually no matter who you ask the eventual answer comes - 'I don't know' (or the get out 'It just is')

And no one does know - we build our scientific model of the universe on supposition as if it is fact. And to me this makes everything questionable. Sure we can chuck things in equations and apply a realative objectivity, but just because we get a working answer does not mean we truly understand. This could be a fluke of our locality and a kind of functioning 'magic' black box. We cannot really understand because none of us can answer the most fundamental question.

Who knows...

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OfflineTag_Number
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: CJay]
    #3308830 - 11/02/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Psilocybin fungi could be all over space.

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* Psilocybin Extraction with A/B yielding crystals...
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retread 36,998 40 07/25/20 02:02 PM
by iconicdave

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