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For doubters of the DMT substrate method.
    #318393 -

This is a direct quote from TIHKAL:

Some fascinating studies have been done in Germany where the metabolically active mycelium of some Psilocybe species have been administered diethyltryptamine as a potential dietry supplement. Normally, this mushroom species dutifully converts N,N-dimethyltryptamine(DMT) to Psilocin, by introducing a 4-hydroxyl group into the molecule by something that is probably called an indole 4-hydroxylase by the biochemists. You put DMT in, you get 4-hydroxy DMT out, and this is psilocin. Maybe if you put Mickey Mouse in you'd get 4-hydroxy-Mickey Mouse out. It is as if the mushroom psyche didn't really care what it was working with, it was simply compelled to do its sacred duty to 4-hydroxylate any tryptamine it comes across. It was observed that if you put N,N-diethyltryptamine (DET, which has not been found in nature) into the growing process, the dutiful and ignorant enzymes would hydroxylate it to 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (4-HO-DET) a potent drug also not found in nature.

See! I knew I'd read it somewhere. A friend is digging out the actual papers from the German experiments for me. I'll post them up when I get them.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #318395 -

Interesting.  Thanks for the info. :cool:

* Contributor to the Free Spore Ring


--------------------
Where there's skill, there's a better way..

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #318476 -

Awesome, pretty ironic cause some people where arguing why it probably wouldn't work and telling everyone to read tihkal and stuff... looks like they need to do a little more reading too ; ) Thats cool though, I'm gonna order some mimosa bark or something and try it as a substrate.. someone also posted a link for a page with dmt extraction or something... I think it might have been you, Explorer. Anyway, here's the addy for it if anyone else wants to check it out.

QT's DMT Extraction for Students

"Now chew em up and slam the orange juice. Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face."



--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #318917 -

heres a place i just purchased mimosa hostilis bark fromhttp://www.ethnobotanicals.com/PureLandCatalogMO.html
w/ all the speculatation i will try it for my self if it a waste of time o well its good for the knowledge! we will never now if someone dont try it!!!



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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: NITRIC]
    #318926 -

I am also trying the dmt substrate but I am using seeds that contain dmt and turning it into ground meal I will keep you posted

remember, behind every great fortune there is an even greater crime


--------------------
Dr.Bluethumbs
RAFFLE to help out GS and his 7 month old daughter

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: dimitri211]
    #319048 -

awesome, im also using 50g on a casing of B+. soon friends..."the truth is out there"...Mulder....hehe

" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"


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" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Bleuboxo]
    #319066 -

I think of buying myself some root bark 2, but will let it rest for a time, got alot on my mind these day's!

_________________________________________
Don't look at me, I didn't do it!!


--------------------
_________________________________________
I support the go.to/FreeSporeRing
Email me at [email]nononsense@shroomery.org[/email

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: nononsense]
    #319078 -

Warning, especially to Bleuboxo, the supplement is added before the mycelium start to grow. In the German method (Gartz) 100mg pure N,N-DMT was added to the substrate ()rice flour and cowdung mix) which the psilocybe culture was then introduced to. IUsing MHRB as a casing isn't likely to affect levels of psilocin that much. You're asking too much of the poor mycelium. It has to grow ON the material, taking it up from the beginning. It won't pick up DMT from MHRB casing material that it is only in cantact with. In order to perform a water extraction on MHRB, you need to acidify the water to a PH of 4.5 - 5 and boil 3 times for a period of about an hour each time. Then, and only then, will the majority (not all) of the alkaloids from the rootbark have migrated into the aciodic solution. Mycelium will NOT extract the alkaloids from dry rootbark. I believe the only surefire method will be to perform some form of extraction on the mimosa first. This way a known amount can be added in it's freebase form, which will not introduce any new contams, and give the mycelium the chemical in "easy to digest" form.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #319088 -

Okay let's make our own DMT tek!
Extract the DMT from MHRB (say 50 grams of root bark) with acified water (ph 4,5), by boiling the bark three times an hour long.
Should one basefy the acid liquid before using it?
Than add NaOH till ph 7 is reached.
Use 200 ml of DMT containing liquid to moisten 175 grams of rye?
Than pc 1 hour?
Than innoculate with agar or spores?
Case with 50/50+?
Peace

_________________________________________
Don't look at me, I didn't do it!!


--------------------
_________________________________________
I support the go.to/FreeSporeRing
Email me at [email]nononsense@shroomery.org[/email

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: nononsense]
    #319122 -

Hmmm, I'd alter that a bit. The only way I know for sure it works is to add freebase DMT. Any other method would have to be tried out first, but the simplest extraction I can think of would be to gently boil 50g in vinegar or dilute hcl (PH1-2). Defat using Naptha (not always necessary with MHRB, always necessary on any material containing chlorophyll). Base with NaOH to PH10, as this will convert all the DMT salts to their freebase form. Extract with Naptha, Butane (which I'm still keen on trying) or dcm. Three seperate solvent phase extraction need to be done, the solvent layers combined and evaporated. This will leave almost pure N,N-DMT. This process takes up to six weeks, and I have oversimplified drastically. It took me three months to get decent yields. For more info see QT's guide. Another, much shorter method that could possibly work is this. I haven't tried it yet, but will. The only problem will be testing the end result. Coarsely grind 50g MHRB and place in a thick plastic bottle (one that won't crack when frozen, or melt in contact with butane). Pierce the lid of the bottle with a small hole (hole should fit the nozzle of the butane canister. Inject enough butane to completely cover the rootbark. gently shake for 10-20 minutes. The butane will remain as liquid while in the confines of the bottle. Then up-end the bottle and let the butane trickle out of the hole through which you injected it into a pyrex jug. The butane will begin to boil off immediately. Once all the butane (which should have a reddish tint) is in the beaker, place it in a pan of warm, not hot, water. This speeds up the evaporation process. The material in the bottom should be DMT. This should work, but there is some doubt as to whether the butane will collect the DMT alkaloids without baseing first, but I believe the only reason that baseing is necessary in the normal extraction is because the alkaloids have already been converted to salts in the acid phase, and thus need converting BACK to freebase. Yes, I'm sure this is right. I'll just have to get a friend to test the end result in a pipe, as I don't get off on DMT at all (unless I have a psillocin pre-dose, possibly). The DMT can then be added AFTER sterilisation of the substrate (the heat involved would destroy the DMT) and BEFORE innoculation. This 'Tek' isn't very technical yet, is it? I think it's time to try this out properly, but it's going to be a few weeks before I can get cracking. Bugger.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #319173 -

Okay, but let's make it simpeler 2 most of us. Why not using the salts of the extracted MHRB. And add this 2 (sterilized mycelium)
I can't imagine DMT would be destroyed at 121?C!!
When you vaporise it temps are much higher, and you don't destroy it than either, because you inhale the vapour you get the effects required!

_________________________________________
Don't look at me, I didn't do it!!


--------------------
_________________________________________
I support the go.to/FreeSporeRing
Email me at [email]nononsense@shroomery.org[/email

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: nononsense]
    #319177 -

The melting point for DMT is about 57 degrees C. When you smoke it you expose it to enough heat to melt it, and then a tiny touch hotter and you get the smoke. If a flame touches it, you don't get any smoke, it is simply destroyed. I guarantee that any DMT put in a jar and exposed to 121 degrees C will not do the shrooms much good.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #319307 -

Makes perfect sense... I'm gonna take a shot at extracting dmt from mimosa bark here in a couple weeks, gotta get up enough money to order some mimosa bark first ; ) I was thinking that you could crush up enough dmt to cover the top of each cake lightly... would that be enough dmt to make the shrooms fairly more potent? From what I understand it takes very little dmt to make the psilocybin content exceptionally higher... could anyone make an estimate on how much dmt on a 1/2 pint cake would result in say twice as potent shrooms from that cake? I guess the only good way to get this would be to grow with the dmt and see for yourself, but I don't think anyone has done that yet ; ) I'm just trying to get an estimate so I know how much mimosa to buy in order to extract enough dmt to last me a dozen cakes or so.

"Now chew em up and slam the orange juice. Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face."



--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #319319 -

Gartz added 100mg DMT to each half-pint jar. Potency was estimated to be 3-4 times greater. Psilocin dose is 10mg, avg, so you're effectively adding 10 extra doses to each half pint jar. There's no reason why this couldn't go higher. The more the merrier, what the shrooms don't convert won't make it to your brain without MAO inhibition anyway.

this raises an interesting point. I have used MAOI's with shrooms before and got the resultant doubling of potency. Using MAOI's to potentiate super=shrooms... ground control to major Tom......


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #319325 -

I am no expert in chemistry but I have enough common sense to say BE VERY CARFUL WHEN ATTEMPTING A EXTRACTION. It seem like things have been explained in a way to over simplified form. Don't blow your self up over this.

On a lighter note I can't wait to here some updates on everyones experiments. Good Luck.



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_____________________________________________________________________________________
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #319387 -

"Gartz added 100mg DMT to each half-pint jar. Potency was estimated to be 3-4 times greater."

do you have a link to confirm this? where did you read it?


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Dirtmaster]
    #320049 -

Dirtmaster. I don't keep links to everything I read on the lycaeum, but it is in the Leda bit, I think in the section on Psilocybin. As I said earlier in this discussion, I am waiting for the Gartz papers in full, when I have them you shall know.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Humidity]
    #320129 -

I didn't mean to oversimplify. You're absolutely right. Butane under pressure or in liquid form will go up like a bomb. Literally. As long as people are aware of this, though, it shouldn't be a problem. Just don't fill your lighters with butane when you're anything other than sober :-) And don't smoke while you're doing it.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #320352 -

so you have a study that shows that dmt in substrate does indeed raise potency 2-3 times, but you just happen to misplace the link? yeah right

and if you've succeeded in extracting cristalline dmt, which by the way is not done by the methods listed above, you're gonna waste it by mixing it with your substrate?

i'd bet a million dollars none of you have ever extracted dmt.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Dirtmaster]
    #320383 -

Dirt,

Don't be a dick. Just cuz you can't extract DMT, Doesn't mean others can't.(It's not hard BTW) And do the world a favor, GROW UP!


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: wenowknow]
    #320711 -

I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't feel like I'm on trial from anyone else, Dirtmaster. I have nothing to prove, just information to share. You're absolutely right, by the way, I'd never extract DMT, 'cos it's against the law :)
But I have dreamed of it many times. I have dreamed also that DMT does not produce the desired effect in me, possibly because of high serotonin levels necessetating a psilocin pre-dose, but this remains to be seen. So, in my dreams, it is not worth extracting DMT or making Ayahuasca. But then I come across the passage in Tihkal which refers to Gartz's work. Now I know that the DMT that I have dreamed so much about has another use enhancing a sacrement that I know works on me. Work out why I'm interested. I'm not claiming invention or discovery of this mathod. If people try it and it works (which it will) then great. If they choose not to try it, then fine.

What sort of people are you used to talking too, Dirtmaster? Liars and cheats? Do you think everyone is like that?

If you doubt my long term interest in this issue, and would like to know some of the background to what I'm discussing, then I suggest you check out the board at dmt.lycaeum.org. You will see my name fairly often. Then come and talk to me, OK?

For interested parties I have found others who are doing the same thing, using Gartz as an exemplar:

http://spiritplants.yack.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000147.html

OK, and this one is a link to the earlier work done by Gartz on adding tryptamine in solution. I'm still having trouble getting hold of the later paper, but I think the DMT work was later than this. One of the last statement validates this method.

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=72

The papers we want are:
Gartz, J. "Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe." Journal of Basic Microbiology 29(6): 347-352 (1989).
Gartz, J. "Biotransformation of tryptamine in fruiting mycelia of Psilocybe cubensis."
Planta Medica 55(3): 249-250 (1989).

I'll keep looking...


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #320842 -

I dont see why it is neccecary to get a purecrystal from of dmt.
Really once you go throuht all that trouble just smoke it.
I think you could just do a basic extraction what alchol or other organic solvent to get a crude from of dmt and add this to your sustrate. There is no need to acidify defat and basify. This cude form does have cotaminates but these are not the ones we care about. Obviously since you used alchol, or butane for the extraction every thing was killed.
The only problem is working with this crude cuz it will probably be sticky and difficult to estimated how much dmt you are actully adding. but hey your going to add it all anyway.



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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: gusb232]
    #321077 -

This is true. To get the DMT part of an Ayahuasca brew an accepted method is to simply boil the root bark in acidified water, adding a pint or so at a time, keeping it at a rolliing boil for 30 minutes, then draining off the water and adding more until the water stops taking on the coloration of the root bark. All the extracts are then combined and simmered down until there is only 100mls left then put in an oven at 150<pi> degrees F in an oven dish. You are left with a waxy orange or brown material, which when used as Ayahuasca is reconstituted with water and drunk after syrian rue, or whatever, has kicked in. This waxy stuff could simply be added to the substrate, and should be pretty free of contams. It just means guesswork in the amounts, but, like you say, you're just going to spread out what you've got.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #321212 -

yo dudes no need to get all defensive and shit we're just having a friendly animated discussion here, right?

i dream that the reason your dream-dmt doesn't work is that you haven't succeeded in an extraction. i dream that a sufficiently large dose real dmt will fuck up anyone. you're smoking some goo, in your dreams, but it's not dmt.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Dirtmaster]
    #321242 -

Well dreaming is all nice and stuff, but if you know some Dreams are real then you know your smoking DMT and not a Goo. Maybe you should dream about it a time or two, then share your Dreams with us. Love to hear it! Use QT's DMT Extraction Guide at http://digilander.iol.it/irimias/dmt_guide.html
Try it, you might suprise yourself. I'd say get some 5MeO-DMT before you go with DMT, As for dreams of smoking go. You can also learn how to smoke it right with the 5MeO-DMT, Before watseing Pure DMT.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #321254 -

Maybe someone should try growing mycelium on phalaris grass, maybe even mix it with some dung for better fruiting.  Many people already use straw or dung/straw i assume that dried and pasturized phalaris grass would work out pretty well for a substrate and it has slightly more than modest amounts of DMT already packaged for the fungus.
I plan on trying this in a few, but others might try it as well to supplement results,
if you need some phalaris grass, for your cow to eat, I might be able to arrange that. (a stream near my home is lined with it)

I can see a world where this is no poverty and no war, I can also see us attacking that world because they would never expect it. :wink:


--------------------
Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice

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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #321526 -

What would happen if 200mg of DMT were added? Would you get more of the goods in the mushies?


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #321531 -

take a look at this ,you all madScientists.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=90436&page=&view=&sb=&part=all&vc=1
ps. some links are broken


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Hermes_br]
    #322227 -

OK. When I used the word dream it was to fit in with this board's legality policy.

In my country Ayahuasca is ssemi-legal, so that's OK. Let me know if anybody else has cooked up one Ayahuasca brew (my third) with 75 grams of Mimosa root bark for one dose. I have it on good authority that if DMT was going to work, that would have done the trick. The norm is 15 grams for a strong dose. Possibly due to naturally high serotonin levels, or low levels of serotonin receptors, in my brain, DMT does not work. DMT will not displace serotonin from receptor sites (Psilocin will), but it will displace psilocin - hence my idea to predose on shrroms.

I'm not bigging myself up, Dirtmaster, I do actually know what I'm talking about vis DMT extraction. Fine crystals smelling like a burnt tyre indiicate its presence pretty undeniably. If I smoked 180mgs in a freebase pipe and got nothing more than the initial rush, and others have used my product to great effect, I would say that's conclusive. AND theres documented evidence (Rick Strassman - DMT The Spirit Molecule) of people in studies given IV injections and not feeling an effect. "Some people are just wired like that" Is what he says.

My ability or inability to feel the effects of exogenous DMT do not affect my ability to read, and as I have so often said - I did not try this and find it works, I found others talking about it (Shulgin, Gartz etc.) saying it would work and describing how it works. I thought I'd share this prior to trying it, which in hindsight was probably a mistake. Mind you, would Dirtmaster have believed me anyway?


Sorry, Hermes, i just read that link. Nuff said. I knew we weren't the first. I do like the post that says "As most of you may know, DMT is converted to psilocin alot quicker than tryptamine..." Its all in there.

Take a look Dirtmaster. IO think there's little need for further talk about this except to discuss results. We know for a fact that it works, right?

Edited by Explorer on 05/21/01 06:06 AM.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Explorer]
    #323112 -

yo, where the fuck is the proof in that thread that adding dmt to substrate would increase potency? huh?

it's a long thread, i might have missed it, but i think you misread some of the stuff about tryptamine and det.

you understand so little of chemistry you can't evaluate these texts.

we do not know for a fact adding dmt to substrate will increase potency. post a link here to a scientific study proving it and i will admit it. until then this is all just speculation.


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Re: For doubters of the DMT substrate method. [Re: Dirtmaster]
    #323186 -

bad news:
according to this research that analyzed the incorporation of radiolabeled intermediates, while is indeed an intermediate and the presence of DMT in vivo could possibly increase psilocybin/psilocin production, the fact is that it is not incorporated into the organism very well.

how do attach a pdf file?i think this board will this only accept gifs and jpegs
until then, you'll have to take my word for it.

more specifically:
a biosynthetic sequence from tryptophan to psilocybin
departments of pharmacognosy and chemistry, royal pharmaceutical institute, sweden 1967
"tryptamine, whcih is readily formed from tryptophan by P. cubensis, serves as a better precursor of psilocybin than tryptophan. N-methyltryptamine is a still better progenitor of psilocybin, but n, n dimethyltryptamine is rather poorly incorporated as judged from the dilution factors, however, if the poor absorbtion of this compound by the fungus, less than 5%, is taken into account, the high dilution factor does not make it an unlikely intermediate."

if you want, i can email the article to anyone via a pdf attachment



c12h16n24ohdmt

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