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OfflineZahid
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Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, kids
    #3183521 - 09/26/04 08:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Video: American Apache kills 3 farmers, including a teenage boy who waved surrender to the Apache but was killed nonetheless.

Video: A large group of Iraqis attending a protest are murdered by an American Apache.

3 farmers, one of which is a teenage boy murdered by American Apache.

This video records a war crime: The Geneva Convention 3-1: 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva03.htm#art3

Indymedia UK comments:

This video has caused a great deal of controversy. Originally shown on ABC TV, it was first shown as an object lesson as to what happens to Iraqi Insurgents who dare show weapons before US forces. However, as time goes on, doubt has begun to surface as to whether the people shown blown to pieces with the 30mm cannon on the Apache were really insurgents, or just harmless farmers.

This is what is known about the tape. It is from the thermographic camera system of an Apache attack helicopter. The image is of heat, not of light. The time of day appears to be midmorning, based on the time display seen on the heads-up display. Military time uses a 24 hour system, there is no "PM" in military clocks.

The vehicle at the far left of the video is a farm tractor, facing away. The engine is running as is evidenced by the hot vertical exhaust tupe and the glowing undercarriage seen in the thermal image. Attached to the rear of the tractor is a plough, and the dirt in the foreground shows clear furrows.

There is a longer version of the tape (which may not play on everyone's computers) that does show one individual taking a long object or objects from his car and taking it over to the vehicle at the far right. It is assumed by those who want to justify the shooting that this object is a missile launcher assembly being discarded. However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it. Nor does it make sense that the man would place a weapon over there it is likely to be run over by the tractor and plough, damaging both the weapon and the plough assembly as well.

And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon. Given that the object is actually longer than an RPG launcher assembly, three alternative explanations suggest themselves.

1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture.

We can deduce several facts from the video.

From the perspective seen in the video, it is clear that the Apache helicopter is not being threatened. It is hovering, moving slowly forward, and not engaging in any evasive manoeuvres which would suggest that the individuals on the ground have threatened the apache in any way.

From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby. In other words, they do not act like the object thrown into the field near the tractor is anything the US helicopter would object to. No sooner has the man delivered the object to the tractor than he turns and walks back to the car. At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire.

From The Geneva Convention 3-1: 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria

The very FIRST person gunned down was the person who had been driving the tractor. This video records a war crime. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284086.html


http://www.newsgateway.ca/Fallujah_video_massacre.htm

Large group of Iraqis murdered by American Apache

Unarmed Iraqis murdered by an American Apache Gunship. The justification? Aw, Dude!

Stan Goff comments: "The ?tell? is in the audio. When the pilot asks permission to fire, he reports a large number of people? not armed people. People. And permission is granted instantly. This is an indication that the mission guidance is to shoot anyone who is in the street. This is a clear war crime, and one that begins with the commander?s stated intent in the operations order. The pilot?s exclamation of satisfaction, ?Aw dude!? at the end just underlines how this casual sadism comes to dominate the psyches of those who are part of a military occupation force, and how the ground reality become ?race war.?"

Stan Goff retired as a Master Sergeant from the US Army in 1996, his last assignment being 3rd Special Forces Group. He entered military service January, 1970, and his first assignment was as an infantryman with the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Vietnam. His service took him to seven more conflict areas after Vietnam, including Guatemala, Grenada, El Salvador, Peru, Colombia, Somalia, and Haiti. His assignments included 2nd Ranger Battalion, 1st Ranger Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, 7th Special Forces, the Jungle Operations Training Center, and the US Military Academy at West Point, where he taught military science.

He is the former Organizing Director for Democracy South and is currently a freelance writer, speaker, and consultant. He is on the coordinating committee of Bring Them Home Now, a campaign of Veterans for Peace and Military Families Speak Out, both of which he is a member. He is the author of two books, one about the 1994 US military intervention in Haiti, called ?Hideous Dream: A Soldier's Memoir of the US Invasion of Haiti? (Soft Skull Press, 2000), and one about the Bush Doctrine and the military called ?Full Spectrum Disorder ? The Military in the New American Century? (Soft Skull Press, 2004).


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183529 - 09/26/04 08:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Of course you know that no American will ever be prosecuted for war crimes. We are doing the will of God.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183533 - 09/26/04 08:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183551 - 09/26/04 09:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That was old, but still good shooting.

I wonder how many pieces they blew him into?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3183687 - 09/26/04 09:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Not surprising, luvdemn supports the killing of innocent Iraqis.  :thumbdown:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183714 - 09/26/04 09:55 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

And you support the killing of innocent non-Muslims. What's the diff?

pinky


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Phred]
    #3183724 - 09/26/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I support military actions carried out by the Mujahideen that target the enemy. I do not celebrate the deaths of innocent people.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183736 - 09/26/04 10:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah you do. In a recent thread here you were rubbing your hands in glee wishing for another 9-11 style attack.

pinky


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Phred]
    #3183744 - 09/26/04 10:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

9-11 didn't target civilians.


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Anonymous

Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183751 - 09/26/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:what:


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, kids [Re: Zahid]
    #3183758 - 09/26/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

hahaahhaahahaha thats awesome! did you see that? allah the merciful and Mohammed the camel fucker protected them ! OH PRAISE BE ALLAH! PRAISE UPON PRAISE! lol... thats why you camel fuckers have NO CHANCE. One suicide bomber can't do the damage that 2 missles from an Apache can.

Dead Muslims are Funny, Amusing and burning in hell.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, kids [Re: Zahid]
    #3183763 - 09/26/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

lol I think I can see one of them waiving to allah! "HI there Allah, thanks for not protecting me, I guess I'll be destroyed like the swarthy sub human filth that I am for resisting my masters, white men and Jews. Oh Allah, prepare my virgins".


hahaha, dead muslims are great.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183764 - 09/26/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)


9-11 didn't target civilians.

Oh really? What about the innocents on the planes? Or the people
who were working at their jobs in the WTC towers? Those people
didn't work for the government. The Pentagon strike is the only
one that didn't target civilians(if you don't count the civilians
who were on the plane).


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: ]
    #3183766 - 09/26/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
:what:




9-11 attack was a strategic operation against America's economic and military back bone.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3183769 - 09/26/04 10:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Collateral damage. The intent was to damage America's economy. It is too bad alot of people died though.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183770 - 09/26/04 10:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think that us White Folk have already decided how to deal with Arabs. Does the phrase that Zahid quoted "Kill 'em all, let god sort them out" ring a bell.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: retread]
    #3183774 - 09/26/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, the Crusaders actually invented that saying when they couldn't sort out the Arab Christians from the Arab Muslims.


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Anonymous

Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183785 - 09/26/04 10:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You're almost as good as some other posters here at avoiding questions.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: ]
    #3183798 - 09/26/04 10:14 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, like how people support this illegal war and turn a blind eye to incidents like this when innocent Iraqis are murdered.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183828 - 09/26/04 10:23 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, wel, I think it's basicallythe USA saying "Fuck muslims". *shrug*
Fuck you, muslim.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: retread]
    #3183833 - 09/26/04 10:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Yea, wel, I think it's basicallythe USA saying "Fuck muslims". *shrug*
Fuck you, muslim.




:thumbdown:


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Anonymous

Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3183836 - 09/26/04 10:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So let me get this straight. The 'coalition' forces won't stop fighting the insurgents in Iraq until they give up and things are peaceful. The insurgents won't stop fighting the coalition until they leave Iraq and things are peaceful.

Uhhhh..??!! Don't the two sides want the same thing?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: retread]
    #3183844 - 09/26/04 10:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Retread...you are becoming dangerously close to getting banned. This is your last warning...If you can't have an intelligent conversation in this forum without flaming then I suggest you find somewhere else to talk shit.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: ]
    #3183847 - 09/26/04 10:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The Coalition wants to establish a puppet government for its own benefit. The resistance is fighting for the complete freedom of their country, freedom from imperialism.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rono]
    #3183853 - 09/26/04 10:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I was quoting what the Americans that I was talking about are saying. Why would I say that to ZAhid? He's about as muslim as Taliban Johny.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: retread]
    #3183866 - 09/26/04 10:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ah yes, the infamous back pedal.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: retread]
    #3183867 - 09/26/04 10:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Spare me the bullshit...tone it down or beat it. It's that simple.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: ]
    #3183869 - 09/26/04 10:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
So let me get this straight. The 'coalition' forces won't stop fighting the insurgents in Iraq until they give up and things are peaceful. The insurgents won't stop fighting the coalition until they leave Iraq and things are peaceful.

Uhhhh..??!! Don't the two sides want the same thing?




Shhh! You're making too much sense...


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3185701 - 09/27/04 11:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That is fucking bullshit.

In the full version of the video, he is seen taking the RPG from the truck to the tractor. Once the firing begins, he he seen running back for it and even gets a hand one it and is removing the sleeve before he gets wasted.

The only thing that video shows is the shooting prowess of the Apache pilots.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinehound
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3185750 - 09/27/04 11:45 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
I support military actions carried out by the Mujahideen that target the enemy. I do not celebrate the deaths of innocent people.




Can a non-believer be considered an innocent person ?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3185779 - 09/27/04 12:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The intent was to damage America's economy.

The businesses in the WTC were like businesses anywhere else in the world. It is just a really huge office building. Attacking Iraqis involved in any sort of business (farming, for example), could be justified the same way as an economic attack on Iraq.

Whether you do it by dropping bombs, or by flying planes into buildings, attacking civilians is attacking civilians.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlined33p
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3186780 - 09/27/04 04:34 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
That is fucking bullshit.

In the full version of the video, he is seen taking the RPG from the truck to the tractor. Once the firing begins, he he seen running back for it and even gets a hand one it and is removing the sleeve before he gets wasted.

The only thing that video shows is the shooting prowess of the Apache pilots.




And if any of you had seen the real complete footage you would all know this as well. This video surfaced here months ago and everyone had to eventually agree that it was a valid attack.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3187252 - 09/27/04 06:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Read the article - re-watch the video. Notice how the teenage boy is waving a cloth in surrender.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: hound]
    #3187257 - 09/27/04 06:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Phluck]
    #3187262 - 09/27/04 06:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Mujahideen targetted the economic epicenter of the United States. Killing a couple of farmers and a teenage boy one by one is murder.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3187362 - 09/27/04 06:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong...Killing is murder..period.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinehound
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3187390 - 09/27/04 07:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

But if you are a non-believer doesn't that make that person an infidel ?

And if they are an infidel isn't it every Muslims duty to slay them ?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rono]
    #3187423 - 09/27/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

From an extremely liberal perspective it is. The rules of justice in Islam states that some lives can be taken justly according to Shariah.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: hound]
    #3187427 - 09/27/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That has to be the oldest misconception of Islam in the west.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3187988 - 09/27/04 09:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Read the article - re-watch the video. Notice how the teenage boy is waving a cloth in surrender.




Watch the original footage not that piece of drama someone created. Its quite obvious he is not waving a cloth in surrender. If anything he is pulling a cloth off of something.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3188016 - 09/27/04 09:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
From an extremely liberal perspective it is. The rules of justice in Islam states that some lives can be taken justly according to Shariah.



Too bad for you Islam doesn't dictate the English language. Any intentional killing not done in self-defense is murder.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: silversoul7]
    #3188095 - 09/27/04 09:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That's what Shariah says. Mujahideen obey Shariah.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3188206 - 09/27/04 09:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Shariah does not have say over the English language.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3188539 - 09/27/04 10:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hopefully one day we(human beings) will all be able to accept that death is the end and that all religion is crap. Then we won't have to fight over who is right and which one of our ridiculous collections of words of god are correct. Too bad that it won't happen in my lifetime. There are still to many superstitious holy rollers out there that keep teaching the same old crap to their kids.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3188979 - 09/28/04 12:25 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Holy shit, you shouldn't have had me watch that. 

I wish you were joking about this because then I could laugh even more, but knowing about your problem I'm sure you aren't.


There is a longer version of the tape (which may not play on everyone's computers) that does show one individual taking a long object or objects from his car and taking it over to the vehicle at the far right.


This is your first clue as to the absurdness of this analysis.    Acknowledge that their is additional footage but discount it's usefulness and trump up the difficulty in watching it.

It's playable on DiVX with a free download.  Very easy. 

It is assumed by those who want to justify the shooting that this object is a missile launcher assembly being discarded. However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it. Nor does it make sense that the man would place a weapon over there it is likely to be run over by the tractor and plough, damaging both the weapon and the plough assembly as well.

It is not assumed by those who justify the shooting that the object is a missle launcher assemply being  discarded .  He's just hiding it or passing it to someone.  It's fully functional.  Of course the other stuff doesn't make sense - it's built on a faulty premise. 

And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon. Given that the object is actually longer than an RPG launcher assembly, three alternative explanations suggest themselves.

The only reason it doesn't get pointed is because he gets turned into swiss cheese by the grace of Allah.  Speaking of which, isn't it obvious which side he is now on?


From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby. In other words, they do not act like the object thrown into the field near the tractor is anything the US helicopter would object to. No sooner has the man delivered the object to the tractor than he turns and walks back to the car. At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire.


BULLSHIT!

When he pulls up he looks around for awhile then quickly takes it out, runs through the field and drops it.  He began walking back to the car, then turned around and ran back to where he dropped it, then went back again for the car - several times.

And the teenager who was surrending?  My favorite.  He's a teenager because he's seen skipping!?!?!?  :lol:

He the one with flag?  That flag was the sleeve they had covering the RPG.  Right after his under-achieving buddy gets blasted, he is seen ripping the sleeve off (your guys flag) to ready the weapon when he gets to experience the glory of the technology that Allah has bestowed upon us. 

I have the full the video if someone wants to host it.  It will be clear to anyone with at least one functioning eye and a marginal ability for deduction to see that what your espousing has more holes than all three of the corpses in the video combined.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189174 - 09/28/04 12:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

SO! God flies an Apache..

..it's so nice that America and its God has weapons of mass destruction to use against the bloody barbaric throat cutting beasts.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189233 - 09/28/04 01:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Not going to read all the replies in this thread, but killing people is wrong. Murdering them from a helicoptor doesn't change that. Even if for some sick reason you think the war against Iraq somehow makes us safer, we've killed 10s of thousands of their innocent civilians... how is that helping the security of the U.S?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: unbeliever]
    #3189383 - 09/28/04 01:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

who gives a fuck about the security of the U.S.? What about the sanity of the world?


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189386 - 09/28/04 01:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
who gives a fuck about the security of the U.S.? What about the sanity of the world?




What does that even mean?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: unbeliever]
    #3189409 - 09/28/04 01:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

means that americans are too worried about their security. i find it funny when i hear americans whine about gas shortages while people in third world countries struggle quietly against disease and starvation.

I would much rather see a sane world than a secure america.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189646 - 09/28/04 01:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Go back to OTD.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3189667 - 09/28/04 02:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Right, so as he was waving the flag/cloth/tarp whatever, he must have been dusting off the RPG. And there's more to suggest he was a teenager aside from the skipping, as he was greeted with a cheek kiss by the other man which is custom in Arab culture between relatives. But that's just 3 people who got killed. You're forgetting about the street protest - Aw Dude!


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189720 - 09/28/04 02:12 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

new sig, I love it!

but uh. how do these throat slashing barbarians deserve any sympathy either? The whole fucking world is nuts now.

hey let's face the facts... Islam sucks, and america is going to take over the world. That's just the way it is, and I hope that the muslim throat slashers are offered more 7-11's to keep them buzy, O.K.?

Now can I get back to rolling this joint?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189734 - 09/28/04 02:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Frankly Islam is the only thing keeping this world sane.

Btw, your sig is offensive. Get rid of it.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189749 - 09/28/04 02:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, O.K.

...you put up a sig depicting a happy jewish boy playing basketball with a happy muslim boy, and I'll take my sig down.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189755 - 09/28/04 02:19 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'll just wait for the admins to do it.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189760 - 09/28/04 02:20 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, fuck peace right?


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189768 - 09/28/04 02:22 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

do islamists hate blacks too or just jews?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189770 - 09/28/04 02:23 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yea.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189778 - 09/28/04 02:24 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Islam hates anyone who wages wars against Muslims. A large chunk of Muslims are black. There are more black Muslims than black Christians.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189804 - 09/28/04 02:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think the american negro shall rise up and save america from the crusading islamists.

right on bros!


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189821 - 09/28/04 02:30 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Zahid and LF, you both ought to change your signature lines.

LF... you don't want to be banned for THIS. There are better ways to go out.

Zahid. Instead of American soldiers, now Christians and Jews? Come on. You understand... avoid the hate. It isn't allowed. Opinions are, hate isn't. It is a fine line... but try.

And both of you, use this forum as it is intended. For political discussion. Not trolling, flaming, or showing off your new sig.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3189834 - 09/28/04 02:32 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Islam hates anyone who wages wars against Muslims.




get it through your head... america is not fighting a stupid "holy war".

...america is kicking islam's ass because they attacked us.

leave america alone, do not sucker punch america just because we are the baddest country on earth. We will kick some islamic asses.

..just ask the japanese.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3189844 - 09/28/04 02:34 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

*sigh*

From this day forth I'm going to hunt down any signature that suggests racism, islamophobia, anti zionism, semitism, anti americanism... honestly where do we draw the damn line.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3189848 - 09/28/04 02:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

O.K. but I've been meaning to come in here and put out some opposition to this terrorist ideology. it sucks.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3189862 - 09/28/04 02:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

It should be your god given right to hate Arabs and Muslims, LF.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3190338 - 09/28/04 05:01 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks, not saying the art was bad... it just goes both ways... you know.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3190367 - 09/28/04 05:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

just because we are the baddest country on earth.




Omg! you yanks crack me up. Im so looking forward to watching your mighty empire crumble in the next few years. Will be almost as much fun as watching reports of more dead americans in Iraq.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3190394 - 09/28/04 05:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
*sigh*

From this day forth I'm going to hunt down any signature that suggests racism, islamophobia, anti zionism, semitism, anti americanism... honestly where do we draw the damn line.




Basicly, the line is drawn when images of broken crosses and the star of david are burning... While a triumphant sword is shown above them.

The line is drawn when a "Freedom fighter" is standing triumphantly over the body of an american soldier.

The line is drawn when a gay Iraqi fighter is shooting sperm on a willing American participant.

The line is drawn at showing pictures of prisoners from Abu Graib (sp) in the signature.

The line is drawn at showing a lynching in a signature.

See?

Hate.

All of these examples serve to INFLAME a certain group of people who see them. Argue all you want about how your signature is meant to show something else... but we both know you like the attention... and we both know they have mainly served to infuriate others.

If you feel Shroomerites are being insensitive to you, point it out, but do not provoke their flames anymore.

I'm sick and tired of seeing people banned because they get pissed off at something you say.

You know darn well what you are doing.

If you want to make your point, The Shroomery is a great place to make it. Still, you must abide by the same rules as others, no matter what your beliefs, if you wish to post here.

Your new signature is disgusting. Sorry the kid died. Now change it... play along... and make your points by sharing your views and opinions... instead of playing "Virtual Martyr".


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3190419 - 09/28/04 05:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

...america is kicking islam's ass because they attacked us.

When did Iraq attack you? I must've missed that one...


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3190470 - 09/28/04 06:07 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have seen many instances of so called 'hateful' signatures and no one got chastized.

The signature is gone as I have no choice to obey the rules, regardless if I disagree with them.

However, you shouldn't incorporate personal beliefs intoyour moderation, imho. The soldier being a 'poor kid' is a non-issue as it's a whole different story. I personally believe the resistance in Iraq is just. I won't be silenced for that. If my beliefs enrage some people (mostly Right wingers btw) and they flame me and get banned, that is their problem. I highly doubt my signatures are what pushed retread and downforpot into flaming me. They simply didn't like Muslims to begin with, and a Conservative Muslim like myself who takes a firm position is simply the most hated opposition - moreso than liberal opposition, to Right wingers in the West. I apologize for the signatures, they are gone. I now have an Arab holding a bunny in his hand instead. I won't apologize though for what I believe in, and there many people here who agree I shouldn't despite the fact they overly disagree with my political beliefs; they nonetheless believe I am entitled to them.

Be at peace,

Zahid


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3191447 - 09/28/04 02:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My personal beliefs have very little to do with this.

It has more to do with the TOS here at The Shroomery.

Read them again, look at what they say about Hate, and provoking flames.

Then change your sig. AGIAIN... you said you did, but you didn't.

Like I said in my last post, please tell us if you see anything that you percieve as hateful and something will be done... but only if you obey The Shroomery rules yourself. Otherwise, you won't even be around to complain. See?

You want this sig to be allowed... becuase it shows Muslims rather than Jews, Christians or Americans.

That is a perfect example of your type of trolling... martyrdom... ignorance... and insighting rage in others.

You know better.

Boo.

I won't even mention what you said to retread and downforpot to get them to flame you... in the first place. Needless to say, you did troll them... BOTH.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3192867 - 09/28/04 08:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Again not everyone agrees with you. I do not. You do not know when to draw the line. I have my political beliefs, and I am entitled. Why is it do you feel because you don't agree with them that you can 'silence' me? Why is it the Rightists here are allowed to support this illegal assault on Iraq by the United States. Maybe its 'hateful' to Iraqis. Maybe they're trolling. Look what luvdem said in reply to a video showing innocent Iraqis being slaughtered by an Apache:

Quote:

That was old, but still good shooting.

I wonder how many pieces they blew him into?




Like I said - I have my beliefs. If you find Islamic martyrdom offensive and 'hateful', that is your own problem. Why the hell should you be able to silence me for it? Do you have any idea how many people take shots at Islam on this form - I'm not talking about retread or downforpot going over the edge, I'm talking about people like pinksharkmark (a conservative moderator) and luvdemshrooms who have consistently mocked the Islamic faith.

See, you don't know how to draw the line. You accuse me of trolling. If I was trolling, that would somehow imply that I don't believe half the stuff I say; when it is fairly obvious that I do. I am a hardline Muslim. Those are my beliefs. I believe the insurgency in Iraq is JUST. I am NOT trolling, I am not intentionally trying to get people banned by baiting them. That is their problem, not mine.

Quote:

That is a perfect example of your type of trolling... martyrdom... ignorance... and insighting rage in others.




Do you have ANY idea how many people get "enraged" in a Political debate forum? This is a political forum and people of different political leanings debate, and people get angry. Again, this is a political forum.

You shown me nothing but blatant of hypocrisy. You are saying my views are too extreme and that I better tone down and change them or face the boot.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3192908 - 09/28/04 08:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You are saying my views are too extreme and that I better tone down and change them or face the boot.



That's exactly what I'm saying..and that same rule stands for anyone in this forum. You happen to be the focus right now...don't even start to claim that the mods are playing 'favorites'...Retread was banned for flaming you on a comment that should have gotten you banned.

My suggestion to you is to count yourself lucky...this time...and quit while you're ahead. Unless of course you decide to take the 'martyr' route.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rono]
    #3192956 - 09/28/04 09:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono, there are other mods and people here who completely disagree with you.

So, how is luvdemshrooms able to make comments like this then:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was old, but still good shooting.

I wonder how many pieces they blew him into?





Quit while I'm ahead? I'm not 'trolling' or 'flaming', I'm openly challenging your moderation. Is that against the rules? You're going to ban me for questioning you?

And you then you continue to mock my religion by making comments like "unless you're going to take the 'martyr' route'.

Catch 22. Double standard. You're in the wrong Rono.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3192971 - 09/28/04 09:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rono was straight up honest with you. Reconsider his advice.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3192980 - 09/28/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Rono was straight up honest with you. Reconsider his advice.




'Advice"? As if. This is selective moderation. Hypocrisy. And he mocked my religion at that.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3192998 - 09/28/04 09:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Surely Zahid, you of all people should not complain when YOUR religion is mocked. Remember your LAST signature? A broken cross and a Star of David burning...

Please, he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

Besides, Rono's mod of this forum. What he says are the rules... are the rules.

We're only talking about the TOS agreement here.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193013 - 09/28/04 09:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not challenging my signature. I removed them as asked. What I am challenging is your insistence that I change my beliefs.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3193037 - 09/28/04 09:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Please, look at all my posts, and point out exactly where I suggest you change your islamic beliefs.

You've got the wrong moderator Zahid.

I'm the guy who keeps saying, "If you see something you don't like, tell us."


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193073 - 09/28/04 09:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

*My political beliefs.

My political beliefs are being demanded to change. This is frankly outrageous and it is no surprise that people agree with me.

I have already completely complied with the removal of offensive signatures - it is no longer an issue.

Would you ask luvdemshrooms or pinksharkmark to change their beliefs because some liberals might them hateful and offensive? Of course you wouldn't. Why should it be any different from a Right winger like myself who simply applies a different culture of conversvatism - ie Muslim/Eastern conservativism, not Western conservativism.

I am not defending myself for the signatures, I removed them. You seem to be missing the point I am trying to make.


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3193160 - 09/28/04 09:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:popcorn:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193212 - 09/28/04 09:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Please, look at all my posts, and point out exactly where I suggest you change your islamic beliefs.

You've got the wrong moderator Zahid.

I'm the guy who keeps saying, "If you see something you don't like, tell us."




And where did I ask you to change your political beliefs?

And why haven't you changed the photo in your sig again? This one is no better. We've been over this.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193223 - 09/28/04 10:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You did not say it directly, Rono did - but you are assisting Rono's case.

Quote:

That's exactly what I'm saying..




As for the signature... it's a picture of someone holding a bunny lol :rolleyes:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3193233 - 09/28/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

OH YEAH... now I see it... LOL.

I thought the guy's knee was a dead child's head.

See what your previous sigs have done to me?

My bad about your sig.

Everything else I've said stands.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193243 - 09/28/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Actually YOU are the one who said your views are too extreme. Rono just agreed.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193252 - 09/28/04 10:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think you or Rono have a leg on this case against me to stand on... One minute I'm accused of 'spreading hatred' the next I'm accused of trolling.  :rolleyes:


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Rose]
    #3193257 - 09/28/04 10:09 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Actually YOU are the one who said your views are too extreme. Rono just agreed.




What's that supposed to even mean?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3193329 - 09/29/04 12:07 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm saying (AGAIN in THIS case) "He who lives in a glass house should not cast stones."

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

Zahid said:
You are saying my views are too extreme and that I better tone down and change them or face the boot.



That's exactly what I'm saying..and that same rule stands for anyone in this forum. You happen to be the focus right now...don't even start to claim that the mods are playing 'favorites'...Retread was banned for flaming you on a comment that should have gotten you banned.

My suggestion to you is to count yourself lucky...this time...and quit while you're ahead. Unless of course you decide to take the 'martyr' route.




You're taking Rono's comments out of context.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans murder Iraqi civilians: protesters, farmers, k [Re: Zahid]
    #3193604 - 09/29/04 01:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

This has strayed far from the topic of the thread.

The last few pages consist of posts that are better off handled through PMs.

Zahid, no one is asking you to change your political beliefs. You're being asked to stop baiting people. If you can't see that by now, I don't imagine another three pages of this kind of exchange will help you see it more clearly.

This thread is locked.

pinky


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