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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 612
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Challenges?
    #3179852 - 09/25/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Why must people assert egotism by issuing challenges that will supposedly assert the truth?

I suppose what they mean is that it assert their truth.I mean after all how can a test devised by a person be fair anyways?It's their ideas and standards pitted against another.

With this being S and P one would hope there is little egotism as egotism is the obstacle to spiritual progress.A needing to prove or disprove is in and of itself a major display of egotism.In the scheme of things being "right" or "wrong" means very very little.

I have no desire to prove or disprove anything.Afterall nothing van be proven or disproven since nothing is impossible but merely improbable at best.Now with nothing being impossible how can ANYONE claim to be "right" or "wrong"?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3179897 - 09/25/04 08:10 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Because relative to oneself, there is only oneself. A lot of people are pulled to validate their own self worth based upon their existence in external perceptions. So, to think they are worthy, they must first find contrast with others who, subjective to themselves, are less worthy. Sort of a classification by comparison. As well, people lose their true selves by trying to exist external to themselves when really, they are only within their self.

It's true that there is no right or wrong. But for those who are illusioned into the seemingly vicious competitive nature, they cannot see it anyother way. Let them continue until they realize their own limitations :smile:

Nice post :cool:


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: deff]
    #3179989 - 09/25/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

IMO all in all these validations,truths,labels and classifications are completely meaningless.IMO They are illusions.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180118 - 09/25/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The cheetah chases a rabbit, challenging the rabbit's speed. It could be said the cheetah pursues the truth by asking the question "which of us is faster?" The outcome of the challenge is a dead rabbit, so in this case the "truth" is that the cheetah is faster. The cheetah has sacrificed its time and energy challenging the rabbit resulting in a gene pool with faster, stronger rabbits promoting their survival, so rather than being based on egotism, the cheetah's challenge is actually an ego-less act of self-sacrifice.

So thank me for my selflessness next time I'm shitting on your ideas. Also, challenges to your ideas would be less catastrophic if you worded them better. As they are they're too vague.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3180159 - 09/25/04 09:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Im refering to spiritual and philosophical ideas.Not physics or physical things.

Also no matter how I word things not everyone will take it as I mean it.Words are inherently meaningless.

Now how does cheetahs being faster than rabbits have to do with S and P ideas?

Also I do believe cheetahs generally dont hunt rabbits.Also some cheetahs will not be able to outrun rabbits due to various reasons.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180203 - 09/25/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You can point out inconsistencies in peoples' belief systems. Although, strictly speaking, nothing can be proven, things can easily be proven beyond reasonable doubt. I mean, not all opinions are of equal worth because some can be shown to be false, such as the opinion "I believe trees are all in Spain". Although you can't prove completely that all trees aren't in Spain due to the fact that at any given moment, the world may decide to call itself "Spain", or other possibilities, however unlikely they may be. That does not mean that you should carry on believing that all trees are indeed in Spain.

If people's beliefs are such that they cannot be proven right or wrong, then maybe there is a bit of egotism involved. Otherwise, so long as the debate is friendly and beneficial (or at least not detrimental) to both parties, then I don't see a problem with it.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Challenges? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3180261 - 09/25/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That is also an example of physical things.Im refering to ideas like: "I believe there is only one God." Or "I believe there are other dimensions." and similar things for which there is no real proof or way of proving it.

In general spiritual,philosophical and religious ideas cannot be proven yet people attempt to assert some truth.

BTW, what if one day all the trees are in spain?What then?The previosuly correct person (the one who said All the trees arent in spain) they become wrong.

Truth = Conformity to fact or reality; exact accordance with that which is, or has been; or shall be.

Fact = Knowledge or information based on real occurrences

Now those real occurrences are different for everyone.Trying to assert one's truth over another is merely needing to be correct out of egotism.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineViaggio
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Registered: 07/05/03
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180290 - 09/25/04 09:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Words are inherently meaningless.
That's a bold claim. Perhaps you meant language has limitations?

Now how does cheetahs being faster than rabbits have to do with S and P ideas?
I think Mixomatosis' metaphoric tale explains the value of challenge. Try not to let your ego get too attached to its own beliefs. When they're confronted with oppositions, you might feel threatened (and then go onto the offensive with a thread topic like this).


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180317 - 09/25/04 09:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Some philosophical ideas can be critiqued - papers are still written on metaphysics, old ideas are still critiqued. If someone has a valid criticism of a philosophy or a religion, for example if they see inconsistencies within it, then I think it is their right on a forum such as this to voice them, in an appropriate manner.

For example, many philosophers have written critiques of Christianity, of Plato's forms, of practically any cosmology that exists. That is how ideas evolve, the less plausible or internally consistent ones (hopefully) dwindle off into insignificance and the overall validity of ideas increases.

Quote:

In general spiritual,philosophical and religious ideas cannot be proven yet people attempt to assert some truth.




When they can be debated logically, though, I think that is a good idea.

Quote:

Im refering to ideas like: "I believe there is only one God." Or "I believe there are other dimensions." and similar things for which there is no real proof or way of proving it.





There is no way of proving or disproving these statements. They are philosophical dead-ends. Not all religious or philosophical propositions are though. Many can, and should be debated.

Quote:

BTW, what if one day all the trees are in spain?What then?The previosuly correct person (the one who said All the trees arent in spain) they become wrong.





Yes. But it is a better idea to believe that not all trees are in Spain than it is to believe that they are, on the balance of evidence.

Quote:

Now those real occurrences are different for everyone.Trying to assert one's truth over another is merely needing to be correct out of egotism.




What do you mean? You obviously don't mean that for one person, all the trees could be in Spain but for another they couldn't be. Also, if we live in anything but a private subjective universe, the statement "there is a god" has equal truth for each individual, its just that not everyone believes it to the same degree.

If you are arguing that there is no objective universe, then you need to prove this first before you can say what you just said.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
Re: Challenges? [Re: Viaggio]
    #3180350 - 09/25/04 09:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Words are inherently meaningless.
That's a bold claim. Perhaps you meant language has limitations?





No I mean precisely that words are inherently meaningless.New ones are made all the time and assigned meanings.Words only have the meanings we give them.I can make up a word, say pish-pash.Now what does pish-pash mean?Nothing.Why? I gave no meaning to it.Now lets say I say pish-pash means something absurd and dreamy.Now lets say another person interprets pish-pash as meaning different.The words means to different things to two different people and both meanings are just as valid for the person who gave that meaning.

Quote:

Try not to let your ego get too attached to its own beliefs. When they're confronted with oppositions, you might feel threatened (and then go onto the offensive with a thread topic like this). 




I certainly did not go onto the offensive nor did I start this thread because I was opposed.I started this thread because IRL and here I  and others are often challenged to things which cannot be proven and the person who offers a challenge is almost always trying to assert their beliefs and the preceived validty of those beliefs over other beliefs with no valid claims to try to be correct.

I also certainly did not feel threatened.

:grin:


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
Re: Challenges? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3180380 - 09/25/04 10:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Some philosophical ideas can be critiqued - papers are still written on metaphysics, old ideas are still critiqued. If someone has a valid criticism of a philosophy or a religion, for example if they see inconsistencies within it, then I think it is their right on a forum such as this to voice them, in an appropriate manner.

For example, many philosophers have written critiques of Christianity, of Plato's forms, of practically any cosmology that exists. That is how ideas evolve, the less plausible or internally consistent ones (hopefully) dwindle off into insignificance and the overall validity of ideas increases."

Critiqueing/debating is much different than saying you're wrong and Im right and also different from issuing challenges in an attempt to prove one's beliefs having more validity than another's beliefs.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In general spiritual,philosophical and religious ideas cannot be proven yet people attempt to assert some truth.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"When they can be debated logically, though, I think that is a good idea."

I agree.Debate is excellent.However trying to prove the worth of an idea egotistically and being close minded isnt.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im refering to ideas like: "I believe there is only one God." Or "I believe there are other dimensions." and similar things for which there is no real proof or way of proving it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There is no way of proving or disproving these statements. They are philosophical dead-ends. Not all religious or philosophical propositions are though. Many can, and should be debated.

Agreed.However many people DO attempt to prove/disprove these statements of out egotism and needing to assert their belief's over others.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, what if one day all the trees are in spain?What then?The previosuly correct person (the one who said All the trees arent in spain) they become wrong.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes. But it is a better idea to believe that not all trees are in Spain than it is to believe that they are, on the balance of evidence.

I am just saying that the "truth" may not always be true for all time.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now those real occurrences are different for everyone.Trying to assert one's truth over another is merely needing to be correct out of egotism.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What do you mean? You obviously don't mean that for one person, all the trees could be in Spain but for another they couldn't be. Also, if we live in anything but a private subjective universe, the statement "there is a god" has equal truth for each individual, its just that not everyone believes it to the same degree.

If you are arguing that there is no objective universe, then you need to prove this first before you can say what you just said.

That is definitely not what Im saying.Sorry I wasnt clear.I was referring to S and P ideas in general.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180462 - 09/25/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

New ones are made all the time and assigned meanings.Words only have the meanings we give them.
So maybe you meant some words have no meaning (such as pish-pash)?  Your claim is obviously flawed considering that we are using a written language (words with consensual assigned meanings) to communicate.  I understand that words can't describe everything, but to claim they have no meaning thus no use in explaining even a fraction of an idea...well, heheheh, prove it :smirk:

...challenged to things which cannot be proven and the person who offers a challenge is almost always trying to assert their beliefs...
I assume when you describe your beliefs (using meaningless words of course), you're not trying to assert your beliefs?  At S&P, a challenge is not the arrogant attempt at asserting beliefs.  It is a request for more information because not enough was provided to thoroughly represent your perspective. 

...and the preceived validty of those beliefs over other beliefs with no valid claims to try to be correct.
I don't understand this part.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180704 - 09/25/04 11:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I started this thread because IRL and here I and others are often challenged to things which cannot be proven
Recently I was on this forum making some point about something that someone else disagreed with. This person declared that what we were arguing about could not be proven, and that the debate was therefore a draw. I insisted otherwise, and instead of proving this by refining their stance and explaining what their REALLY meant and why it can't be proven one way or another, they made a bunch of declarations about why they're on this forum and how I'm a bad person, and now I'm on their ignore list.

The moral of the story, be careful assuming you're having an argument that can't be proven one way or the other. Don't just insist on it, explain why that's the case, and boom, any of these silly conflicts you're complaining about can be resolved in no time flat.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: Viaggio]
    #3180732 - 09/25/04 11:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So maybe you meant some words have no meaning (such as pish-pash)? Your claim is obviously flawed considering that we are using a written language (words with consensual assigned meanings) to communicate. I understand that words can't describe everything, but to claim they have no meaning thus no use in explaining even a fraction of an idea...well, heheheh, prove it





LMAO No I meant all words have no inherent meaning.My claim is not flawed.Written languages were made up and new are made up as well occasionally such as tolkien's example with LOTR.My point is we assign multiple meanings to these empty words and letters.For example some person made up aint and eventually they added it to the dictionary and added it as a word.None of this inherently means anything but the meaning we assign to it.Written language is also very inefficient for communication.Pictures are much better.

This is a perfect example of egotism.I give an idea,you assert that I am wrong no matter what I say and wont consider it for one moment.Then you ask proof as a way to assert your idea over mine.

You also assigned your own meaning to my words as you assumed I meant they had no use.

Quote:

I assume when you describe your beliefs (using meaningless words of course), you're not trying to assert your beliefs? At S&P, a challenge is not the arrogant attempt at asserting beliefs. It is a request for more information because not enough was provided to thoroughly represent your perspective.





No I am not ASSERTING my beliefs OVER others I am sharing them.I also enage in debate with an open mind to reason and come to a conclusion that may or may not modify my beliefs.I try to assimilate knowledge from all sources.I do however belief that all the challenges I've seen so far were issued out of egotism.

Quote:

and the preceived validty of those beliefs over other beliefs with no valid claims to try to be correct.




This means that people perceive an idea to be more valid than other beliefs but other no real reason or evidence as to why and they always try to assert their believes over others.Kind of a "Im right and youre wrong because I say so" thing.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3180758 - 09/25/04 11:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The moral of the story, be careful assuming you're having an argument that can't be proven one way or the other. Don't just insist on it, explain why that's the case, and boom, any of these silly conflicts you're complaining about can be resolved in no time flat.




Some things are self explanatory.For example the existence of god, there is no evidence either way really.Nothing convincing or solid.It's pretty self explanatory why the existence of god cannot be currently proven/disproven.Many subjects are not so simple.I've given sufficient explanation IMO most of the time for what I believe.

However there are many conflicts/debates which cannot be resolved.

For example proving where emotions come from and whether or not we create them.There is no proof what-so-ever either way merely vague quasi-evidence and alot of theories at best.

I do not take debates personally or think the other person is just being bad in any way.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3180909 - 09/26/04 12:15 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

After tracing the definition of the word inherent, I've come to realize that you're right. Words do not have an inherent meaning because their definitions and associations change. I misunderstood, so I was wrong.

Assertion is part of the debate process. One side of the discussion believes it is right, or true, or more accurate than the opposition. It is the origin of debate. Assertion without proof, however, makes for a weak stance. Challenges are offered as a means to strengthen a position. Therefor, if the opposition is handing you an opportunity to strengthen your position, there is no egotism involved. The debater isn't concerned with winning, but rather the issue at hand.

Sharing ideas on S&P can be a very fulfilling experience, especially when they are challenged. The debate that generates as a result, however, could make or break your perspective on the idea. Challenges enrich beliefs discussions. They're a good thing.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: Viaggio]
    #3180963 - 09/26/04 12:31 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm very sorry if I was harsh towards you.I just tire of assertion over others without any valid reason to do so.In example "My belief is better than your's.Why?Because it is." Or they make up an irrelevant or invalid reason to make others believe they are right.I believe in the pursuit of knowledge without being clouded by anything.

As far as challenges I dont mean debate or discussions or sharing because thats great.What I mean is the kind of challenges that are like: "Prove to me beyond a doubt that you are right or else you're wrong." Most things cannot be proven/disproven currently in spiritual matters.And anything that may be proven/disproven is certainly difficult.Not everyone is articulate.This makes it dificult for those people even if they are right and proof is semi-easy to obtain.

Many so called challenges are one sided and people will dispel ANY evidence offered to make others look bad.This is very evident in the paranormal communities.

In S and P lately there is alot of egotism,hatred,name calling,etc...

We need to love our fellow men and women and help them to grow as they help us to grow.But in a constructive manner.S and P has become worse lately than it usually is.

We need sharing of ideas and acceptance of others.If we can dispel a myth with evidence great but constructively.If you have no solid proof then dont say they are wrong.This is how it should be.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineSource
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3181495 - 09/26/04 02:39 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think the main problem of critiquing metaphysical ideas is that metaphysical litteraly means beyond the physical, logic encumbered realm. Therefore it is erroneous for logic to be used as a means of determining the truth of ideas gathered from experiencing a realm beyond logic.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Challenges? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3181595 - 09/26/04 03:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I mean after all how can a test devised by a person be fair anyways?It's their ideas and standards pitted against another.

Again this is fact. My intelligence quotient exceeds 98% of the world's population.


So you don't agree with ANY kind of testing yet you make claims of the validity of testing when it applies to you? *scratches head*


With this being S and P one would hope there is little egotism as egotism is the obstacle to spiritual progress.A needing to prove or disprove is in and of itself a major display of egotism.

Ah, the irony of it all. Validation is the path to understanding and may or may not be related to ego, wheresas claiming that you know the motivation of another is extremely presumptive.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Challenges? [Re: Swami]
    #3181659 - 09/26/04 03:20 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I never claimeed it was a perfect test and I do believe those tests are imperfect.Which is precisely why I dont hold them very high.Others however swear by them.I could be a freaking idiot yes.Do I care?No.

All tests are imperfect period.It is a fact however ACCORDING to the test.Is that better?

(yawns) Go read a book or something swami.Frankly you bore me and I dont like you or your opinions.You are hellbent on disproving everything you dont agree with.I don not feel I was being presumptuous at all.I really do not care what you think of me.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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