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Invisibleninjapixie
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Stepping outside reality
    #3176920 - 09/24/04 11:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

One of my favourite quotes from the great man Alan Watts.

"But if you and your thoughts are part of this universe, you cannot
stand outside them to describe them. This is why all philosophical and theological systems must ultimately fall apart. To 'know' reality you cannot stand outside and define it; you must enter into it, be it, and feel it." Alan Watts

Agree/disagree? Does it sound like a cop-out?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3177514 - 09/25/04 01:52 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

well it is less of an explanation than an emergent comment.
words that emerge from an immersed viewpoint.
part of what he is saying is predictive about those who do not ascribe to "living in the moment".
he suggests a cause but the prediction could stand without the same cause suggested, and the prediction itself is not related to the need of direct knowing or even to just to being yourself.

but direct knowing by being the moment remains the right direction and is probably what he was pointing at.

great man or not the statement is a bit garbled but certainly if it helps get you to the moment it is doing what it was meant to do.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3177790 - 09/25/04 03:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

hmmmmmmm meow


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3178213 - 09/25/04 07:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

be it, and feel it

i loved that qoute :wink: thank you!


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3178252 - 09/25/04 08:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Godel's incompleteness system says that for any axiomatic system, there will be some fact that is both true and unprovable in that system. This Watts quote brings that to mind.

Another similar idea is that no system can model itself, but a system can model an inferior system. For example, my gamecube can't model another game cube, but it could model a super nintendo.

I've always thought that this explains a lot of the insight value of ethnogenics. Your brain is incapable of modeling itself, but the psychedelic brain can model the non-tripping brain and have room left over to do other stuff, like make observations about it, leading to insights that would not normally come about.


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Offlinetrinity7
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3179274 - 09/25/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That quote of Alan Watts reminded me of one of my all time favourite movies: eXistenZ.
Near the end of the movie Jude Law`s character complains that he`s sick of a game he doesn`t know the rules for. He`s told that for to know existence he has to play it.
About the same is said in another brilliant film - look at my user name and you`ll know which one I`m talking about.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: trinity7]
    #3179854 - 09/25/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

that was fun! iw always said, to know what life is, i got to live one :P


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3183532 - 09/26/04 08:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Not quite sure I understand what you're saying redgreenvines.

I think the statement is aimed at overly religious types or philosophers who try to define reality from some gods-eye view, by stepping outside it. But you obviously can't step outside yourself to define yourself which is why those theories must ultimately fail.


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Stepping outside reality [Re: tomk]
    #3183547 - 09/26/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"I've always thought that this explains a lot of the insight value of ethnogenics. Your brain is incapable of modeling itself, but the psychedelic brain can model the non-tripping brain and have room left over to do other stuff, like make observations about it, leading to insights that would not normally come about."

Interesting.

Makes me think about a state of mind beyond the tripping brain that can model the tripping brain, and a state of mind that can model that, and so on, and so on... Will it go on forever?


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