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Offlineksdoob
journeyman
Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
help me understand genetics
    #3172141 - 09/23/04 10:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

im pretty mush lost on why one would need to isolate strains from thier spores is it not possible to just repeatedly grow the same strain over and over from prints taken generation after generation.. iv read about all this before but its been a long time so i fergot..can someone post some detailed info so i can study into this further


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OfflineCryogeniczV
what?
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Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 2,414
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 4 months, 10 days
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172173 - 09/23/04 10:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Isolating strains allows a person to grow the mushrooms consistantly at a certain size, at a certian tempature, and conditions. By cloning or isolating, you are taking only the best characteristics you can find in order to grow the best mushrooms. Yes, you can grow off of prints, however you will not get as good of a pinset, and flushes will be not as good.. so on.


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Offlinezoltar
Hello I love youwont you tell meyour name?

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 149
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172177 - 09/23/04 11:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

because with isolating you can select the healthiest strongest substrain. while you would be growing the sme strain over and over again you wouldnt be growing the best possible sub-strain you could grow.


--------------------
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.
*note to any one reading my posts. any post pretaing to the cultivation of illegal psilocybe mushrooms are completely fictional. im a known pathological liar.



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Offlineksdoob
journeyman
Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: Cryogenicz]
    #3172216 - 09/23/04 11:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

so taking a print of a desirable mushroom wont always produce the same desirable features as cloning or isolating the same mushroom?


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OfflineInnernaut
MycologicalNetworkTechnician

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 245
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: zoltar]
    #3172222 - 09/23/04 11:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have run into a wall first hand with the genetic issue.  According to stamets in the mushroom growers guide one cannot produce a decent yield beyond the 3rd generation.  This is true.  After the third generation contamination become a much larger villan and even if your myc doesn't contaminate it will not yield much at all.  This can be easily seen by looking at the mycelium.  It lacks rhizomorphs... which are VERY important for primordia formation.  Once your strain has genetically degenerated you will have incredibly cottony mycelium.  In my experience, it isn't worth the time past the 2nd generation.  I learned quite a big lesson on that... Put a ton of work and effort into a project only for it to yield a few fruits and High contams.  :mad2:


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OfflineCryogeniczV
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Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172225 - 09/23/04 11:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

correct.


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Offlineksdoob
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Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: Cryogenicz]
    #3172241 - 09/23/04 11:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

ha i learned something today thanks


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Offlinezoltar
Hello I love youwont you tell meyour name?

Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 149
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: Innernaut]
    #3172272 - 09/23/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

well i just recently started agar work so i cant say with experience that thats true but i have read that strains will degenrate after a few clonings. something about too much cell divison i belive.


--------------------
We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.
*note to any one reading my posts. any post pretaing to the cultivation of illegal psilocybe mushrooms are completely fictional. im a known pathological liar.



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InvisibleNOS4A2
Sh!tApple

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 510
Loc: notfarfromtheshittree Flag
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: zoltar]
    #3172337 - 09/23/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It's all about the DNA fellas

The more you cut the same pair

the more scraps land on the floor

if you know what I mean.
rather simple really


--------------------
Hail to the King, Baby
CulturingTech


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Offlineksdoob
journeyman
Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3172379 - 09/23/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

so how do they survive in the wild.. without someone there to clone the strain


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InvisibleNOS4A2
Sh!tApple

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 510
Loc: notfarfromtheshittree Flag
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172406 - 09/23/04 11:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

They Multi spore
it's got the best odds


--------------------
Hail to the King, Baby
CulturingTech


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Offlineksdoob
journeyman
Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3172478 - 09/23/04 11:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

meaning two strains from same speices =multispore?


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InvisibleNOS4A2
Sh!tApple

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 510
Loc: notfarfromtheshittree Flag
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172527 - 09/23/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

the term strain seems to be a matter of perspective.


--------------------
Hail to the King, Baby
CulturingTech


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Offlineksdoob
journeyman
Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: NOS4A2]
    #3172564 - 09/23/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i think im gettin it.. ill have to do my homework more...


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OfflineMadHatR
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Registered: 10/13/03
Posts: 253
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172603 - 09/24/04 12:01 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It can be compared to human genetics. This is only a example for simplification sake. Their makeup is different, but it gives you a good idea of what is happening. The spores taken off of one mushroom would be like it's children. In humans the same 2 parents can have several kids, some may be born with bad eye sight while others may not. Each child is a combination of both parents, but due to the genetic code they turn out different. What you are doing when you clone is you take the parent with all the features you want and none of the flaws and make a copy of it's exact code. If you were to let the generations continue then you are pretty much having brothers and sisters hooking up and having kids. This of course is bad. Continued inbreeding almost always causes problems (ie German Shepherds over the years developed hip problems, etc). A multispore would be like one mushrooms kid and a distant cousin hooking up.


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Offlineintrigue Happy Birthday
MMMM hard trance
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Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 248
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: MadHatR]
    #3172665 - 09/24/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

ok so this is my first post so hi. but more to the point. so if each generation of musrooms get worse then what can i do to make this a renewable process. would always keeping a grain jar growing work?


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: MadHatR]
    #3172692 - 09/24/04 12:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I like comparing it to plants. Like if you were gonna grow pot. You start with 1000 seeds and germinate them all then remove the males. Your selecting the charecteristics you want here (like germinating spores on agar and selecting the quickest growing section from that multispore). You can keep growing taking prints every grow and keep doing it like that. Some do, Magash is one on here with large grows who does. Some just dont mess with it. This is where liquid cultures are handy though, its the same myc culture so no degredation like someone mentioned getting over several grain to grain transfers (I've done up to 5 generations without much problem in fruiting stages but it was in that generation slower to colonize by a few days so I stopped using it, all fruited well and plentiful though). Liquid myc however once you have a very quick peice of myc to start it will stay the same for months with no slowing down since its the same myc you just take a little off the culture every time. Spores are always good to keep backups of your strain though and then just work with isolates. It's how you get strains after years to fruit exactly how you want them to in the conditions you provide them because each generation is used to your conditions. Thats also how you get strains like the penis envy and fat ass strains ect..working with strains isolating features you want for a long time..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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InvisibleNOS4A2
Sh!tApple

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 510
Loc: notfarfromtheshittree Flag
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3172723 - 09/24/04 12:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well put Scat

I think my squirrel likes the way you think.


--------------------
Hail to the King, Baby
CulturingTech


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OfflineInnernaut
MycologicalNetworkTechnician

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 245
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: ksdoob]
    #3172804 - 09/24/04 12:38 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Liquid Culture is great for this as scat mention. To elaborate, rather than using a syringe a 10 cc to innoculate a decent amount of PF jars you can use 1cc of syringe and innoculate karo and turn it into 100cc of liquid mycelium culture without any genetic degeneration. Do the math. Once you use up that 1000cc of spore solution that can be yielded from one syringe, and the near infinite amounts of syringes one could produce via this method form successive spore sprints... when the supply runs out in a few years I would consider it a great opportunity to try a new strain and order some more... this is just me though... Agar is something I stay away from.


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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: help me understand genetics [Re: Innernaut]
    #3172853 - 09/24/04 12:47 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly! You should never have to buy a second syringe of a strain! Unless something happens drastically bad to all your back up syringes and prints which you dont use because you use liquid cultures (100's of jars can be done with a single peice of grain covered in myc dropped in a karo mix as well) when you knock up your jars. On top of all of this it also removes 3-7 days for the spores to germinate off of your colonization time when using liquid cultures! Then of course spore prints (1000's from those jars if you want) for long term of each strain.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, 10cc Syringe, Agar, Paul Stamets

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