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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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fun little idea to trip on.
    #3167485 - 09/23/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i was watching a show on PBS debating about god's exsistance/lack of and the influence on poeple and the world.

I noticed the poeple debating using the words infinity, forever, and eternity a good bit.

assuming any of you here believe in infinity, someday a large number of years after you die, the exact same you is born again on the exact same world (keep in mind, in an infinite universe its impossible for that not to happen). if in this life time you start using your imagination to talk to your future self which exsists soley in your personal imagination, then when the next you comes about and does the same thing they'll get your message (since they're using the exact same imagination) you could then use your imagination to imagine communication from your past infinity self. since its the exact same imagination, mathmatically speaking it should work to communicate with your own personal past and future via the infinity selves.

all you have to do is start imagining!


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3167515 - 09/23/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

i dig it :-)


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3167572 - 09/23/04 12:27 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You'd dig a book called Future Memory too.................

I love this stuff. I play with it a bit differently. I will intention to be in resonance with my future self that has already accomplished something I am after, and then, its as if my feelings about things start to change, I may get guiding images of do's and don'ts (judged by the feeling that comes with the image, and it's as if I am put on the right frequency path to follow.

I have my theories that if time is simulatenous and everything possibility imaginable has already existed in thought, then I should be able to access time lines via their vibration to follow.

It's a form of time line jumping to me. You can 'feel" when it's happened, things change, particularly attitudes and perceptions all in a moment. Those new attitudes and perceptions put you in a place to be making different choices of action. It's wild.

Time being simultaneous, you should be able to get guidance from a future self that has already walked every path.

In a way, we are saying the same thing because I beleive the imagination realms are the same as the thought form realms.

Cool Post idea!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinetomk
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3168551 - 09/23/04 03:50 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Infinity and every are different things.

A similar claim would be that since there are infinite numbers between 3 and 4, then a machine that continually spit out random numbers would eventually spit out pi.

But at this point you have to make a distinction between different orders of infinity. These are refered to as aleph. An Aleph 0 infinity is an infinity where the numbers can be put into one on one correspondence with the counting numbers. (Even numbers are an example of an aleph 0 infinity, since you can put 1 even number with one counting number 2-1 4-2 6-3 8-4 ...etc).

There are other types of infinity though, that are infinitely larger then the aleph-0 infinities. These are explained through a techinque called cantors diagnalization. Say you want to line up all the numbers between 1 and 10. No matter how you try and number these with the counting numbers, it's demonstrable that there will be some numbers both in this range, and outside your range of counting numbers.

Let me demonstrate.
Counting
Numbers Numbers in said range

1 1.0000000....
2 1.0010010....
3 1.0020020....
4 1.0030030....
5 1.0040040....
6 1.0050050....
. .
. .
. .

Now, take the number that is formed by the ones digit in the row with counting number 1, the tenth digit with counting number 2, the hundredth digit with counting number 2, and so on, and add 1 to each digit (if a 9 is present it becomes 0 with no carrying. Now, this number will be different from each number you have put into one on one corresspondence with the counting numbers, because it varies from each number in the matrix by 1 in some digit. It will also be in the original range.

This is aleph 1. There is also aleph 2, aleph 3, up to aleph infinite (I think it goes this high I wouldn't bet my life on it but I might bet cash on it).

Anyways, depending on what people mean by things like eternity, infinity, and forever, these terms are going to come apart. Suppose time and space are continuous (that is for any extending region, there are an infinite number of non-overlapping subregions). You could have an infinite amount of time that does not last forever. A lot of the time when people use terms like infinite, it is compatible that something is infinite but not all inclusive. So even if there were an infinite amount of time, that wouldn't mean every moment of time was in this range.

Further, it's possible to have every single moment of time and not have an infinite number (especially, and not have an aleph-1 or larger infinity). Suppose time is discrete, which means that there are smallest possible moments of time, time atoms as it were. If time is discrete, and has a beginning and an end, then there is some finite number of moments. If time is discrete, and has either no beginning or no end or both, then there is an infinite amount of time, but it can still be placed into one on one correspondence with the reals.

What you would need for your theory to even get off the ground is all both, time is at least aleph-1 (and possibly aleph-infinite, I'm not sure) and that time is continuous.

However, even given this, you would also need one of time has no beginning and time has no end. If time had both a beginning and an end, then you would have no way either to know either that you were the first in the sequence, or the last in the sequence.

But even given all this, there is still the problems that many things that are infinite, without beginning and end, and all inclusive are patterns that never repeat themselves. Pi is an example. If time was like the number pi, it would have no last member, be on the order of aleph-1, be continuous, but never repeat.

So, you would need a time to be a repeating, infinite, continuous, without end (or without beginning) all inclusive entity.

I guess that is the roundabout way of saying your admittedly interesting result packs a lot of assumptions about the nature of time and what people mean by infinite. Even if your assumptions are right, this does not mean that the people who use words like eternal, infinite would, or that your inferences are justified by their use of the word.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: tomk]
    #3174550 - 09/24/04 12:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

heheheheh yeah thats why i don't believe that idea. thanks for pointing out mathmatically something i had only kind of intuited.

however, if you ever catch a person on acid mentioning eternity who doesn't know about infinity mathmatics, i still think it would be neat to mention that idea to him or her and stand back and watch the sezuires pile up haw haw haw.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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Offlinetnecseda
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3188744 - 09/27/04 11:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yea this is what music is for

its all in us and all in the birds


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3188955 - 09/28/04 12:20 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

(keep in mind, in an infinite universe its impossible for that not to happen).

Not necessarily. If I loop my Moody Blues CD (and the the theoretical equipment never breaks down) to play an infinte number of times, it will never play Train.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinetnecseda
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: Swami]
    #3189240 - 09/28/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

what if the possibilty,which will happen,Moody blues will change to train,or the best possible way to look at it is....all music is the same,so if you listen closly you can hear train in the backgrouond along with everyone else


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: Swami]
    #3195095 - 09/29/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"If I loop my Moody Blues CD"
The Moddy Blues are awesome.


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3195241 - 09/29/04 01:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

if i loop my moody blues cd, id brobably go a little bit more crazy.

i guy can only take so much! :wink:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineDr_Bloothumb
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3199144 - 09/30/04 09:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think I've done that in my dreams. I'm the same person, but with no memory of this reality and in a different world. Knowledge comes to this world then from my other life to this one through my dream. I say this because I have learned things from my dreams before that I couldn't have known before. Of course nothing can be proven- it could all be in my head. :regularshroom:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: tomk]
    #3199155 - 09/30/04 09:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I think when most people refer to "infinite time and space" they refer to a non-discrete spacetime with no "beginning" or "end". Space extends in all directions for infinity. The Universe has existed for an infinite non-discrete time, and will continue to exist forever. Spacetime is not discrete, but our measurements are...which gives the appearance of discreteness (ie: we use objects of finite size to do the measuring, so can only measure a finite size).

Now that's not what I think...but what the general definition of "infinite space and time" should be :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: trendal]
    #3203442 - 10/01/04 11:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

very nice :wink:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3205680 - 10/02/04 03:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

assuming any of you here believe in infinity, someday a large number of years after you die, the exact same you is born again on the exact same world (keep in mind, in an infinite universe its impossible for that not to happen).

Translation of tomk's post for the non-mathematician: :wink:

Not necessarily.

There are more irrational numbers (like e and Pi) than there are 'counting numbers' even though the set of both contains infinitely many elements.

Some infinitely large sets are larger than other infinitely large sets. This is counter-intuitive, nevertheless, it was shown to be true by Cantor's proofs in Set Theory long ago. Given this, even an infinitely long time will not necessarily guarantee that all possible events will occur.

So much for the idea that a room full of monkeys with a perpetual banana dispenser and a typewriter will eventually produce Shakespeare's Hamlet.  :tongue:

Good thread, by the way...  :thumbup:

Here's something simpler but just as deep to ponder. There are infinitely many real numbers between any two whole numbers.  That's to say that between 6 and 7, there are infinetely many numbers like 6.5, 6.23, 6.7949584737583, 6.9, and so on.

So, since there are infinitely many reals between 6 and 7, how many more than infinitely many must there be between 6 and 600? It turns out that there are just as many in both sets. Both sets have the same cardinality; both sets have infinetely elements.

Weird, eh? If there is a Creator, he/she/it has a great sense of humor!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (10/02/04 05:24 AM)


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Offlinetomk
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: Diploid]
    #3206049 - 10/02/04 08:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It gets even wierder when you do it with regions of space or numbers.

Consider the set of counting numbers. If you pick one element from this set, you have the same chance of picking a prime as you do an even number, or picking a multiple of five as an even number. You could take infinite pieces of paper, and on each write a even number and a prime number. You'll never run out of primes and never run out of evens. So, you have the same chance of picking a prime from the set of counting numbers as picking an even number. (this is controversial)

Take any two regions of a continuous space. These regions both have exactly the same cardinality. Take the space inside a thimble and the space between the earth and the sun. You could line up, 1 for 1, the space in the thimble and the space between the earth and the sun, and you will be able to do it without running out of space. This means that (given continuous space) the space in the thimble could fill the space between earth and sun, and the space between earth and sun could fit in a thimble without remainder. Another reason I believe space is discrete.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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Onlinedeff
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: truekimbo2]
    #3206126 - 10/02/04 10:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Numbers are not absolute, they are our own 'logical' manifestations to describe the universe. Infinite is infinite. Break it into two and both are still infinite (ie. range from 6 to 7 and 7 to 8 are each the same (infinite) as from 6 to 8). This is based purely on our logic of infinite, which is (whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... x 10^258435487587435374580437584^48584574857485^4985634759674357634753457^483573845735973459.....) :wink:

Infinite is a finite concept, that is, it was devised by our finite logic. It, like numbers, do not exist in the way we logically view them, outside of our own perceptions. Everything is, plain and simple :smile:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: tomk]
    #3207457 - 10/02/04 07:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Consider the set of counting numbers. If you pick one element from this set, you have the same chance of picking a prime as you do an even number, or picking a multiple of five as an even number.

Yes, and this even though primes become scarcer as you count up. Set Theory never made intuitive sense to me until I (during a mushroom trip) considered that maybe it's a wildly hilarious joke a very funny Creator constructed into the fabric of existence for our benefit.

Heheh... but in the absence of evidence, I remain an atheist... or maybe not..........  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (10/02/04 08:34 PM)


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: fun little idea to trip on. [Re: Diploid]
    #3207544 - 10/02/04 07:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Infinity seems hard for most people to accept but I find it easier to accept than the illusion of time.

As most of you experienced when tripping, when you trip, time means very little if anything. Every moment that arrives is leaving at the same time, each moment of existance a splendor and beauty to behold, something new at every single angle. Infinity is hard to comprehend when you're comparing it to the physical incarnation of the Ego which lies and tells you yesterday is a more distant time than right now is, and the future is a distant experience compared to the current...but it's all a fallacy in place so we can experience memory. Time is memory and memory is time. It's said that upon Death, we recieve a 'life review' where we experience every single event in our lives at once, like a movie. This would be consistent with our chemical and spiritual makeup: if we experience everything as the moment (but only percieve the passage of time) then Death would be the culmination of all the experience we took in (conciously and subconciously) all at once...Since Death is apart from the physical and the Ego, measuring "how long" that takes is irrelevant...it all exists and occurs at the same time. People spend what seems likes minutes to years in trancendental states (meditation, NDE's, tripping, etc..) and it's never possible to correlate how long with our current measure of time.

Science is currently trying to break down life to a final constituent, trying to reduce everything to the smallest degree possible. But if we truly exist in an infinite source of energy, things will never stop breaking down but simply become infinitely smaller the more we look for it.

All we have is now.


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