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 Mr. Pink
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Registered: 01/29/01
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 So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? 
#316637 - 05/14/01 12:38 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you have, PLEASE, for the love of god, tell me how you did it. In the last 3 months AFOAF has lost 48 QUARTS of birdseed. Here is a letter he sent me.
I am doing EVERYTHING by the book, as well as using controls and experimenting and I am still left scratching my head. I have tried Penningtons Wild, pennigtons Finch seed, 8 in 1 Finch seed, Katyee Finch seed and one other brand.I have presoaked for 24 hours, steeped and used workmans formula. I have innoculated via STERILE glove box and Oven Tek with syringes, crumbled BRF and honey water. I have used pollyfill lids, filter disks and regular lids. I have pressure cooked at every imaginable combination of temp and psi, but stick to 75 min @ 15 Psi mostly. I have shaken the jars and tried letting them sit. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME I HAVE GOTTEN WETSPOT. EVERY SINGLE JAR fuckng bacillus, eat a dick.
The jars start to colonize nice and fast (many different temps tried, mostly 86) and then by 5 days slow, and BAM, dirty socks and spoiled milk, greasy seeds and one pissed off aspiring mycologist ready to hang up his innoc loop! Someone PLEASE help me, I have an apartement filled with jars and its stinkin like grandmas edilble panties. I was ready to try rye, but read even worse things about it... What to do??
Edited by Mr. Pink on 05/21/01 08:38 PM.
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 egolesss
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 Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316644 - 05/14/01 12:48 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is some funny shit! Tell friend to proceed as usual with the colonizining recipe, only next go round add vermiculite to the steeped mix before pressure cooking......After PC cooking let cool as usual innoculate and shake the hell out of them, the verm should absorb the excess moisture........
Going crazy will drive you mad, but once you get there the rest is easy.....
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Vampire999
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316696 - 05/14/01 03:11 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's what I would do. I'm sure there will be argument as there usually is :)
Find out at which stage the contamination is occuring. When my friend used rye he would pressure cook for 2 hours at over 20psi, this will also work with birdseed. Take you pressure cooker fill the thing up with a ton of water and let thoes quart jars have it!! Cook them for 2 hours at 15-17PSI. You might have some burnt seeds, but nothing that will cause to much trouble. Definatly continue to use the filter discs. Nothing works better. Let thoes jars sit for a few days. If there's no sign or bacillus then you know you are starting with clean jars.
Continue from there and you will soon find out what your problem is. Also i'm not sure if you are pre-cooking the birdseed like in ryche's 2:1. I've seen many problems with that and would recommend preparing the jars much like you would with rye described in TMC, allowing them to soak for a 24 hour period causing most indospores to germinate, considering that an actual bacteria body dies at a much lower temp then the spores. You will have to work out the water to seed ratio. Best of luck.
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whyIdied
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316705 - 05/14/01 03:30 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no idea what you're doing wrong, but here's an idea.
I build a special incubator that reduced my contams to 0%...I took a HEPA filter and basically channeled the clean air output so that it all went into some cardboard containers with shelves in them (whatever) that held my pint jars. Basically, it ensured that NO airborne contams got into my jars after innoculation. I just knelt in front of my incubator...innoculated carefully and then placed the jars in the "safe" place.
I think I was being a bit obsessive, but whatever...fast colonization and no contams.
yay.
The other response about cooking up some jars and then leaving them be for a while is great too...that way you can tell when contams are getting in...
Great Luck to you.
...slow moves, sweet feet...
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egghead
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316717 - 05/14/01 04:17 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Birdseed always seems to dry out. My only success w/ it was growing Ganoderma lucidum. Rye works best for me.
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sylo
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316727 - 05/14/01 04:49 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have had good luck with birdseed but it is hard to sterilize. For me , steeping it in boiling water one day and pressure cooking it for one hour the next seems to work. I suspect your friend is getting contams from a source other than the birdseed. The problem with inoculating with spores, BRF cakes, and honey water is that you can not tell if you have a contam before you inoculate. Mycelium picked from agar is my choice. If contams are a problem, it helps to mix verm with the grain. It also helps not to shake the jars. Shaking helps to spread contams. Unshaken jars take a lot longer to colonize but slow is better than nothing.
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BrownPastures
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316781 - 05/14/01 08:57 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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why dont you just SOAK your seeds for 24hr and ps them then???
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psilocyber
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316783 - 05/14/01 09:01 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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petepetosa
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: sylo]
#316784 - 05/14/01 09:03 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mr. pink.....Get rid of all the stinking jars. You probably have enough contams concentrated in your house to infect the state of Texas. Decontaminate your house with lysol or just bleach. You will never get anything going with all that green shit sitting there ready to pounce.
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gratefulredhead
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316785 - 05/14/01 09:04 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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i've had success and failure with bird seed--much more wet spot than with rye in my experience, but i'm far from perfecting the thing. i would agree with the above that if you are confident in your glove box, why don't you give agar a try. then at least you know that you have a clean strain to work from.
presoak, drain, add gypsum...
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tom
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 Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#316849 - 05/14/01 10:55 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Heres your trouble. In workmans recipie he says 130ml water and 250ml birdseed and pressure cook for 70 minutes. your trouble is that you are steeping and soaking and all that nonsense. If you have a pressure cooker and some quart jars all you need to do is jack shit plus what I said above. And if you do want to steep or soak DON'T add water. If youve steeped it just mix 2:1 birdseed:verm and PC for around an hour.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: gratefulredhead]
#316852 - 05/14/01 11:05 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wet spot is usually an indication of imperfect sterilization. If you were experiencing airborne contamination you would see molds as well as bacteria. Molds are very sensitive to heat and are easily killed. But the endospore forming bacteria are heat tolerant and hence, the primary target of pressure cooking. I would suggest getting your pressure cooker serviced and possibly replacing the guage. You need to make sure you are achieving 15 PSI. You will also need to compensate for altitude if you are much above sea level.
I try to pressure cook for an hour at 15 psi, but in reality its probably more like 18 psi after I get the heat adjusted and stable. I start the timer after exceeding 15 psi and I don't cut the heat until after the full hour. I leave the cooker on the burner and let it slowly cool down, usually overnight. This always works for me using random brands of seed. I am right at sea level, so 15 psi has the full kick.
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b420
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Workman]
#316869 - 05/14/01 11:36 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Birdseed is now my monkey's (old habit) favorite innoculation substrate. But it took a dozen greasy quarts to get it right. Now he never loses a jar. He follows Workman's tek of
250 ml birdseed
130 ml water
1 gram gypsum
Qt. jars with polyfill seal, no steeping
PC'd for 70 min. at 15 psi.
Incubate 84F
Germ and show in 3-4 days
90% colonize in 12-14 days
Two specifics that my monkey believes are key to success:
- Make SURE you are pc'ing a full 70 min. at a full 15 psi. If you have a cheapo PC without a guage that says 15 psi, you probably are pc'ing at 10 or 12 psi. Good for PF cakes, no good for grain.
- Most important, IMMO, ditch the fancy finch seed. The high sunflower content invites contamination. Use the cheapest birdseed you can find. Want you want is almost pure millet. A few small sunflowers in the hull are fine. But stay away from the finch mix. My monkey never had luck with finch mix, cannot fail with cheapo birdseed.
HTH
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Mr. Pink
Model Prisoner
Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 142
Loc: Small town with a BIG pro...
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 Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: egolesss]
#316947 - 05/14/01 01:35 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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AFOAF is honored by recieving so many intelligent responses. He thanks you all. Here is another letter he sent me. He has addressed each of you individually it appears (he is bored):
egolesss: Adding verm to the mix seems logical from here, as it seems that soaking up the moisture would help prevent the spread of bacillus. The only reason I hesitated adding verm in the past is because I have read that it is pretty much useless. If it can help stop wet spot it seems pretty fucking useful to me. I will give it a go if I try birdseed again, thanks.
Vampire999: For at least one batch of jars, I have let the PC get up to 18 psi at times and let it go for 2 hours. Didn't help, and yes I have tried pre-soaking the seeds to hatch endospores. Thanks
whyIdied: yeah, it was important to have a semi-sterile incubation chamber for me as well. I just bleach bombed the shit out of a rubbermaid and used an electric blanket to keep it at 86. Do you think that the bacillus could have survived in the chamber some how from my first batch, and infected the second batch? Appreciate your response...
egghead: For some reason, my BS seems overly wet (like grandma's panties). I have tried steeping but I also tried the 250 to 130 workmans, and it was reduced to a slimy pile of shit as well. What is Ganoderma lucidum? souds interesting...
sylo: Yeah, the last time I tried BS, I steeped and then let it sit for 36 hours to let the endospores hatch. I thought that was definetely the prob, yet here I am once again. I am postive my syringes are clean as I have used them many a time with great results. The BRF was treated with some h202 and was used in casings which are now pinning like mad ;), so I doubt that was it. I am intrested in using agar to isolate strains, and I will attempt it in the near future. I am just discouraged about all this failure to embark on that quest right now. Thanks for the reply
BrownPastures: I tried that, didn't work.
psilocyber: I started cleaning everything today, what a thankless fucking task that was. I can't get that smell out of my nose. Ughhhh . I also believe that BS batches can be contamed. In fact, I think I was unlucky to get a contamed batch everytime. Bacillus is often added to seeds to prevent insects from destroying it. But why can't I kill it with heat? WTF!
I often PC with polfyfill lids covered with tin foil. DO you think that could be the cause of my problems? Can mositure enter the lids despite the foil? Thanks for your advice.
petepetosa: Yeah, no shit. My place fucking reeks. Bacillus isn't green though. Sometimes I wish it was in order to detect it easier. Cool name BTW, and thanks.
gratefulredhead: Another cool name, BTW, I am seriously condsidering rye after all this bullshit. I have heard bad things, but it HAS to be better than this.... WHere do you get yours and how do you prepare it? Thanks for the advice..
tom: I have tried all of those methods except for adding verm. All have failed miserably (or have I????) Thanks
workman: That is what I am talking about. I find it impossible to believe that I am introducing the wet spot, when EVERY jar gets infected the SAME way, 48 times to be exact. I dont like those odds. Where can I get birdseed that is NOT INFECTED to begin with? Where do you get yours?
My PC is an All American Unit (the best) and it has served my well for about 6 months now. A gauge for psi IMHO either works or it doesn't, but just in case, I let it go to 18-20 psi sometimes. I KNOW that a lot of pressure is built up in there, with all the shaking and hissing.. I also let the cooker sit overnight. Thanks alot for your advice man, appreciate it. How does it feel to have a birdseed formula named after you LOL ;)
bt420: What function does the gypsum have, does it absorb moisture? I follow the same guidlines you do, but fail. Where can I find BS that is almost pure millet? Thanks
Again, I appreciate all your advice guys. I am almost certain my problem is there when I start, and that is contamed birdseed from the get go. The question remains on how to find birdseed that is not an uphill battle to sterilze...
Edited by Mr. Pink on 05/14/01 03:46 PM.
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Anonymous
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: b420]
#316951 - 05/14/01 01:38 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Also as an alternative to agar wedge you can use a nice rhizomorphic chunk off of a cake and dip it into peroxide before you drop it in.
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Triple_3
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Anonymous]
#317109 - 05/14/01 04:08 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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gypsum does absorb some moisture
and makes it easy to shake
you should be able to shake it like a rattle, if it is really clumpy then use less water
it will still work with drier than optimium substrate as you get better, adding water will increase fruiting, just don't overdo it or you will get excessive sweating, wet spot
dry is better than wet
BS works great with gypsum,
wouldn't try it without it.
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psilocybinjunkie
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#317150 - 05/14/01 04:44 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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I had slight success with birdseed but I had to triple the vermiculite ratio.Also I don't own a pressure canner or cooker so I steam sterilized the substrate.Would probably work better with the pressure canner.
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Mr. Pink
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Registered: 01/29/01
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: psilocybinjunkie]
#317665 - 05/15/01 01:30 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone have any more advice on my problem?
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egghead
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#317679 - 05/15/01 01:44 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mr P.. Ganoderma lucidum is a medicinal polypore. The birdseed was spawned into woodchips for them.
The reason mine birdseed jars dry out is because I use filter discs. Also, my incubator doesn't regulate humidity so the RH in there is only 45%.
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psilocyber
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#317835 - 05/15/01 10:39 AM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Suntzu
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: psilocyber]
#317942 - 05/15/01 03:05 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey Pink;
Birdseed has worked like a charm for me the vast majority of the time, through various brands, with and without BirdKote, with and without steeping.
One thing that could be a contributor is any residual slime on the seed after hydration. You'll see this when you shake a freshly-sterilized jar and it looks like a gummy mess on the glass. Even though it may initially be 'sterile slime', such a layer can act as a wick for the bacteria [Bacillus is VERY VERY motile].
The best looking jars are the ones that are given a good steeping/soaking AND a good rinsing. Maybe you've already tried this, but it really gives nice-looking spawn without the slime.
In addition, inoculate heavy, and ASAP after cooling.
I heartily agree with workman, this is not likely an airborne vector. It is puzzling that through all your variations you're still at a 48 jar loss. Even slightly contaminated jars will sometimes survive OK and consume the contam. . .
Good luck;
The above information is complete fiction.
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Gadget
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Mr. Pink]
#318803 - 05/16/01 06:33 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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Dude,
How are you making your spore syringes?
FOAF fills them with tap water and pressure cooks them along the jars (just keep the pointy end up during cooking). After the PC has cooled down, find a CLEAN spore print, fire up the oven, Open oven door, extend wire rack, take lid of PC, reach in and grab one syringe, open spore print and place on wire rack, squirt a little water out of the syringe onto spore print, stir with tip of needle, suck water back up, repeat 2x.
Place spore syringe aside, and repeat for additional syringes.
FOAF has let the spores hydrate over night and just used the syringes straight away with no noticble difference in colinization speed in either method.
FOAF is 24 for 24 bird seed jars with no problem.
Only problem FOAF is having is contams starting in case after second flush, but since 12 1/2 pint bird seed cakes are yielding about 3.5 dry OZ in 2 flushes, FOAF is not conerned about contams after the 2nd flush :)
Best Wishes
Gadget
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ralphster44
collector
Registered: 01/03/01
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Re: So, has anyone actually had success with Birdseed? [Re: Gadget]
#318824 - 05/16/01 07:11 PM (23 years, 5 months ago) |
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