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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
#3167225 - 09/22/04 09:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said: Do you consider Khilafah a dictatorship?
From a quick description looked up on the internet, yes. It is most definately a dictatorship.
Quote:
Do you consider the great Muslim empires of centuries past as nothing but dictatorships?
Specifics...
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Us Muslims regard Khilafah as sacred.
BFD. Would you like to live under the government edicts of the Pope? Such a condition would be a dictatorship as surely as your Khilafah.
Quote:
Under Khilafah Muslims are able to focus on our complete submission and slavery to Allah.
Slavery = dictatorship.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Phred]
#3167233 - 09/22/04 09:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Individual freedom is found in complete obedience to God. There is political freedom in Khilafah. The people decide on who rules. But there is no freedom given to those who wish to sin in public by building bars, gay bars, etc.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
#3167249 - 09/22/04 09:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is a Zen thing, then? Or is it a "1984" thing? "Submission is freedom". Yeah, right, Achmed.
This is why though Europe will be Eurabia in a generation, America never will be.
pinky
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Evolving]
#3167287 - 09/22/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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From a quick description looked up on the internet, yes. It is most definately a dictatorship.
Amazing; the ignorance of Islam is deep seated in the West; even in their scholars.
Specifics...
The first Khilafah in Arabia for example, which was lead by the companions of God's Prophet Muhammad.
Slavery = dictatorship.
In the context I was speaking in, I was talking about Slavery to God. Those who run and enforce the Khilafah are also slaves of Allah, as are the dhimmitudes. We submit to the Divine Law ordained by God.
BFD. Would you like to live under the government edicts of the Pope? Such a condition would be a dictatorship as surely as your Khilafah.
I would have little problem living under Catholic Law as Muslims and Catholic generally share a same sense of morality that is in obedience to the Lord.
Slavery = dictatorship.
I wasn't talking about slavery to state, I was talking about Slavery to God, and Submission to His Divine Law. Even those who run and enforce the Khilafah are slaves of Allah. We all obey the Divine Law ordained by God Almighty.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
#3167291 - 09/22/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Without Western intervention, dictatorships would gradually fall to Islamic revolutions. Also, who would be responsible for this translation, implimentation, and enforcement of Shariah? The Shia's? The Sunnis? The Wahhabi's? Is it possible that all of these branches would have animosity and fight each other(like they do in the present day)? Would this sectarian situation explode into violence? P.S. Please answer my prior questions in my other posts.
Edited by RandalFlagg (09/22/04 09:49 PM)
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Phred]
#3167294 - 09/22/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Think again - 6 million (the size of Israel ) and growing.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
#3167516 - 09/22/04 10:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said: Amazing; the ignorance of Islam is deep seated in the West; even in their scholars.
Here's a little heads up, when you use jargon that is not known outside your cult, don't expect everyone to immediately grasp your concept. Here's a link I found regarding Khilafah, tell me what is wrong with the author's explanation.
Quote:
The first Khilafah in Arabia for example, which was lead by the companions of God's Prophet Muhammad.
... and, describe the government. What were people allowed and what was required of them?
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In the context I was speaking in, I was talking about Slavery to God.
Slavery to an imaginary being? Have you been to The Church of The Easter Bunny? He makes us color eggs and eat chocolate...
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Those who run and enforce the Khilafah....
Translation, "Those who run and enforce the Theocratic Dictatorship of Khilafah..."
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I wasn't talking about slavery to state, I was talking about Slavery to God
But when the state is based on forced obedience to mystic edicts, what does that make it?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!

Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3167526 - 09/22/04 10:19 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Saudi is stable, but they're evil repressive bastards that the bush family the us government is in bed with. Just wanted to throw that out there.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Evolving]
#3167550 - 09/22/04 10:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Here's a little heads up, when you use jargon that is not known outside your cult, don't expect everyone to immediately grasp your concept. Here's a link I found regarding Khilafah, tell me what is wrong with the author's explanation.
Read the history of Islamic Law through the Muslim world.
... and, describe the government. What were people allowed and what was required of them?
Everyone existed in a moral utopia.
Slavery to an imaginary being? Have you been to The Church of The Easter Bunny? He makes us color eggs and eat chocolate...
Allah is the True Reality. The life of this world is an Unreality, a test that unbelievers like yourself are sadly failing.
Translation, "Those who run and enforce the Theocratic Dictatorship of Khilafah..."
Under Islamic Law, the enforcers of the state are also in submission to the Divine Law of God.
But when the state is based on forced obedience to mystic edicts, what does that make it?
A nation of Guidance from the Supreme Being.
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EonTan
bird

Registered: 08/18/04
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Loc: very south
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: Seuss]
#3168232 - 09/23/04 12:34 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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O you who believe! do not take the jews and the christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Surah v 51
This is how Islam regards other religions. The only good jew is a converted one, the only good christian is a converted one.
If you have been exposed to the qur'an and don't convert, you are an infidel.
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: EonTan]
#3168284 - 09/23/04 12:43 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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That verse rings true because despite the fact Islam considers Christians and Jews people of the book, Christians and Jews dislike Muslims and regard us as unsaved. That verse is a heads up that Muslims will be challenged by everyone - kufr, and even those who worship Allah in different religions.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: Zahid]
#3168299 - 09/23/04 12:45 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why won't you answer my questions?
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3168327 - 09/23/04 12:50 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Also, who would be responsible for this translation, implimentation, and enforcement of Shariah? The Shia's? The Sunnis? The Wahhabi's? Is it possible that all of these branches would have animosity and fight each other(like they do in the present day)? Would this sectarian situation explode into violence? P.S. Please answer my prior questions in my other posts.
The people elect a caliph who best represents all Muslims, and all people under the Khilafah.
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EonTan
bird

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: DigitalDuality]
#3168358 - 09/23/04 12:57 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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Islam is a response to jews and christians not following the good book. The qur'an itself reads like a "what the people of the book did wrong before us" manifesto.
Islam actually takes It's qur'an seriously, unlike the jews and the christians before them. When there book says to do something, they do it. So If it did say Kill the infidels, it would be IMPORTANT, unlike Leviticus describing what to wear and what not to wear. The difference is in the Followers, no the scripture.
Fortunately it only mentions killing infidels when they INVADE.
The irony to me, is that Muslims living in the west and in the east are falling victim to the same Swaying, that the qur'an cites about the jews and christians before them. Little by little, the qur'an will be taken less literally, as the old testament was before. Orthodox jews made way to reformed jews, Christian fundamentalism made way to reformed christianity, So to will fundamentalist islam make way for reformed Islam. Then another Religion might come about that talks shit about the unworthy Muslims.
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: EonTan]
#3168381 - 09/23/04 01:01 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The difference is that The Old Testament and New Testament has been corrupt, distorted, and lost in translation by its followers. How many versions are there of the Bible? There are many. How many versions of the Holy Qur'an? One one.
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EonTan
bird

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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: Zahid]
#3168432 - 09/23/04 01:16 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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For a Guy who loves the qur'an, I don't think you actually get it. Have you ever read the Torah in Hebrew?
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Zahid
Stranger
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: EonTan]
#3168453 - 09/23/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Torah and Judaism are closer to the natural religion than the polytheists of Christianity - however, it has still been changed. Logically, as it was originally revealed all at once to Prophet Musa.
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EonTan
bird

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states are [Re: Zahid]
#3168761 - 09/23/04 02:37 AM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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The torah has remained unchanged since it was written down the first time in hebrew. It is translated into other languages just like the qur'an is, and things can get alittle blurry in translation.
The problem with judaism, in the eyes of Islam, is that it wasn't followed, the problem was with the people. It will be the same with Islam. It already is.
PEOPLE ARE HYPOCRITES.
You are a hypocrite, I am a hypocrite.
Religion is hypocritical. A thourough read of The old and New testaments, and the Qur'an would let anyone know that.
I believe in GOD, and no religious Doctrine can convince me otherwise.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: Zahid]
#3171520 - 09/23/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, you think that Shariah law would be the best thing for all of the Middle East. If America did not meddle in the Middle East, the dictatorships would cease to be and this overruling Islamic law would be instituted everywhere
You still have not answered the following questions however:
1. Why have Syria or Lebanon(countries the U.S. gives no money to and has no involvement in) not fallen to "pure" and "true" Islamic revolutions? These countries are not currently "meddled" in at all by the U.S. and they are dictatorships.
2. How would Iran's Islamic revolution be fixed?
3. What is to stop Islamic revolutions from ending up as fucked up as Iran's or the Taliban's?
4. What is to stop the perpetual Arab strongmen and thugs from trying to take power? Do you honestly think that if the U.S.'s aid and troops weren't around, that these strongmen would decide to relinquish power? Do you think that strongmen wannabes would not try and make a play for power?
5. Is it possible that during the fall of the dictatorships, there would be a lot of chaos, death, and jockeying for power?
6. Why is the Arab world so different that it needs Shariah to be stable and prosperous, yet there are many other areas of the world (America and the European countries) that are stable and prosperous without widespread Islamic influence or Shariah?
7. If the U.S. were to remove itself completely from the Middle East would Muslims still hate us?
8. If the Middle East remained a shithole, would the Arabs continue to blame America even if America was not at all involved in the Middle East?
9. If there was no U.S. influence in the Middle East, how can you be assured that Shariah would rise? Do you know for a fact that it would rise?
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Zahid
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Re: Why is Israel a stable democracy and the Arab states aren't? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3171594 - 09/23/04 07:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago) |
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1. Why have Syria or Lebanon(countries the U.S. gives no money to and has no involvement in) not fallen to "pure" and "true" Islamic revolutions? These countries are not currently "meddled" in at all by the U.S. and they are dictatorships.
They're not meddled by America, they're meddled by Israel.
2. How would Iran's Islamic revolution be fixed?
Iran is running their own affairs for Shi'ates. I do not agree with Iran's theocracy as it is not Khilafah, it is a clerical theocracy that's puts too much focus on the rulings of Clerics that the people have no say on.
3. What is to stop Islamic revolutions from ending up as fucked up as Iran's or the Taliban's?
Again, Iran is a Shi'ate issue, it is their country and it is not Sunni business to intervene - they rightly overthrew the U.S. backed Shah and installed their own government. And the Taliban was constantly at war with the Russian backed Northern Alliance, and they refused to seperate culture from khilafah.
4. What is to stop the perpetual Arab strongmen and thugs from trying to take power? Do you honestly think that if the U.S.'s aid and troops weren't around, that these strongmen would decide to relinquish power? Do you think that strongmen wannabes would not try and make a play for power?
Again, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'strongmen'.
5. Is it possible that during the fall of the dictatorships, there would be a lot of chaos, death, and jockeying for power?
You gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette. There is a hadith where the Prophet said Muslims will struggle over constant temporal rulers after the fall of Shariah before a group of righteous fighters establish the Khilafah again. We believe this to be Iraq. For Muslims, Iraq is the biggest hope for Muslims because now Muslims are able to meet the Grand Enemy on the battle field.
6. Why is the Arab world so different that it needs Shariah to be stable and prosperous, yet there are many other areas of the world (America and the European countries) that are stable and prosperous without widespread Islamic influence or Shariah?
In Arab and Muslim culture, we believe that laws should be determined by God. Man made laws are considered a blasphemy and an insult to God because in man made laws, the laws are being decided by foolish fallible human beings.
7. If the U.S. were to remove itself completely from the Middle East would Muslims still hate us?
Muslims would not hate America if they stayed out of Middle Eastern and Muslim affairs.
8. If the Middle East remained a shithole, would the Arabs continue to blame America even if America was not at all involved in the Middle East?
That's big giant IF being shot into the dark. You act like we're just scape goating America because it's the Super Power. That's not the case.
9. If there was no U.S. influence in the Middle East, how can you be assured that Shariah would rise? Do you know for a fact that it would rise?
It would rise, because in the modern world so far WITH U.S. influence, their intention is to prevent Shariah from rising.
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